STAR Flow, Chirality and Vorticity PWG

[Niseem <niseemmagdy AT yahoo.com>]

Hi ShinIchi,

(1) I’m surprised to see the scaling factors between data and model are 
so similar.
What kind of experimental effect did you take in to account in your 
model calc,
especially in terms of acceptance and efficiencies etc? I would think 
you need to
adjust something in order to make the shuffled width to be the same 
between them,
because it would be mostly driven by the number of particles. Similar 
adjustment
would be needed/feasible for having the resolution to be similar, or? 
Could you tell
us what you have done for this?

>> Just used the same experimental cut "\eta and pT" please note AMPT 
is expected to fit the data v2 and spectra.
 Note that those events are not my events, they have been given to us 
by the model author.


(2) Why did you choose here to show the model with 3% case, where the 
signal is
about an order of magnitude larger than data and you do have 2% case, 
where the
signal is much smaller and closer to the data.

>> You asked for some comparisons without any request on the signal.
Therefore I just chose the one that you can see easily the effect.
The 2% case is attached in the file now.


(3) Is mixed DS distribution exactly symmetric between positive and 
negative DS
region for both DS and DSp cases? Have you confirmed this by overlaying the
positive/negative flipped same distribution?

>> This is confirmed via fitting them and looking into the mean value 
which is about -5.0e-05


(4) The same question on the out-of-plane DS distribution (DSp 
distribution), it is
symmetric with respect to positive/negative flipping? It looks like this 
is the case
for both data and model, when I look at your first two pages of the 
attached file,
however the next two pages do look strange, please make sure what you are
plotting in p3 and p4. Left/right panels do look same in p3 and 
left/right panels
seem to be flipped? Since I see the signal only in out-of-plane (DSp) 
for AMPT, or?

>> When I fit the mix-dist the mean value is about -5.0e-05 for in and out
>> The same is plotted just different dist on top of each other. I 
think it is only how we plotting them.



(5) Does the out-of-plane ratio C(DSp) have to be symmetric between 
positive
and negative regions? It does look like more or less the case in p5 and 
p6, however
out-of-plane data does seem to show somewhat opposite asymmetry compared
to the in-plane case at least in the experimental data, is this what you 
would expect?
This is not really clear in the model, maybe because of the statistics. 
But I would
assume you know the answer since you must have played with the model to 
include
some experimental effects and/or physics effects etc, or?

>> We are not doing any symmetrization here.
Out-of-plane could have some small asymmetry from the background that is 
not included in the model.
Finally please note that this is a spatial case of the AMPT (I do not 
have the model to play with) which is published by the model authors. 
Recently an independent work was published in the Rn for CMW 
[https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://arxiv.org/abs/1911.00839__;!!P4SdNyxKAPE!Vf-hWgRRdyUrCP5YFu4R82NlsN6RAScQzHt3w12oDlaQ4sWIO5bt7-xSHgnN8pPEUWFZl88i$ ]


>>Finlay, The meeting starts today please let me know if you are fine 
with my talk.


Niseem





On 4/17/21 2:29 AM, ShinIchi Esumi via Star-fcv-l wrote:
> Dear Niseem
> Thank you for the comparison plots.
>
> (1) I’m surprised to see the scaling factors between data and model are so 
> similar.
> What kind of experimental effect did you take in to account in your model 
> calc,
> especially in terms of acceptance and efficiencies etc? I would think you 
> need to
> adjust something in order to make the shuffled width to be the same between 
> them,
> because it would be mostly driven by the number of particles. Similar 
> adjustment
> would be needed/feasible for having the resolution to be similar, or? Could 
> you tell
> us what you have done for this?
>
> (2) Why did you choose here to show the model with 3% case, where the signal 
> is
> about an order of magnitude larger than data and you do have 2% case, where 
> the
> signal is much smaller and closer to the data.
>
> (3) Is mixed DS distribution exactly symmetric between positive and negative 
> DS
> region for both DS and DSp cases? Have you confirmed this by overlaying the
> positive/negative flipped same distribution?
>
> (4) The same question on the out-of-plane DS distribution (DSp distribution), 
> it is
> symmetric with respect to positive/negative flipping? It looks like this is 
> the case
> for both data and model, when I look at your first two pages of the attached 
> file,
> however the next two pages do look strange, please make sure what you are
> plotting in p3 and p4. Left/right panels do look same in p3 and left/right 
> panels
> seem to be flipped? Since I see the signal only in out-of-plane (DSp) for 
> AMPT, or?
>
> (5) Does the out-of-plane ratio C(DSp) have to be symmetric between positive
> and negative regions? It does look like more or less the case in p5 and p6, 
> however
> out-of-plane data does seem to show somewhat opposite asymmetry compared
> to the in-plane case at least in the experimental data, is this what you 
> would expect?
> This is not really clear in the model, maybe because of the statistics. But I 
> would
> assume you know the answer since you must have played with the model to 
> include
> some experimental effects and/or physics effects etc, or?
>
> Best regards, ShinIchi
>
> > On Apr 17, 2021, at 11:44, Niseem via Star-fcv-l <star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov> 
> > wrote:
> >
> > Dear ShinIchi,
> >
> > As I stated early the AMPT work is published anyone can use it as it's from 
> > the paper. If you want I can remake Fig.1 to separate the data from the AMPT.
> >   With that being stated, I expanded my slides to include step-by-step plots 
> > from AMPT as well as the scaling factors. I hope this good for the time.
> >
> > It's okay to ask we all want to understand the physics in a good way :)
> > See the updated file attached.
> >
> > Niseem
> >
> >
> > On 4/16/21 6:44 PM, ShinIchi Esumi via Star-fcv-l wrote:
> > > Dear Niseem
> > > I understood your situation, one can do limited things in a limited time.
> > > Since you are comparing your data with the AMPT to argue about physics
> > > implication, therefore I would still like to see them (data and model) side 
> > > by side
> > > in each step of your analysis, especially you say “S -> S’ -> S” is just the 
> > > scaling
> > > on R, which is done separately between them, so I would guess the scaling 
> > > factors
> > > are different between them, so the scaling would directly impact on your 
> > > comparison.
> > > If you do have everything in your analysis note on the experimental data and 
> > > also all
> > > the information on the model in your published paper, you could collect them 
> > > all
> > > these necessary plots/tables from the different places to show in one place, 
> > > and
> > > try to convince us your data-model comparison is indeed reasonable or not.
> > > Best regards, ShinIchi
> > >
> > > > On Apr 17, 2021, at 7:06, Niseem via Star-fcv-l <star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov> 
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi ShinIchi,
> > > >
> > > > For make it clear the slides I sent some slides to answer some of your 
> > > > points. I'm doing only the 10-30 which I will present in the APS.
> > > > AMPT is published and I sent the 2-papers before.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Could you overlay 2 or 4 data sets from p19 in one plot (A),
> > > > and show their relation to p20 in (B), then to p21 in (C),
> > > > for both data and ampt side-by-side : (A,B,C) 3 plots x 2 case?
> > > >
> > > > > > this will be found at my slides sent today.
> > > > and for a few centrality cases and a few q2 selections? : 3 plots x (3+3) 
> > > > cases?
> > > > Maybe also for a few pT windows as you did in p12?    : 3 plots x 3 cases?
> > > > And also for a few <Ach> window as you did in p16?   : 3 plots x 3 cases?
> > > >
> > > > > > I will sent those after the meeting
> > > > And I would also like to see the analysis steps
> > > > S -> S’ -> S” for both data and ampt                            : 3 plots x 3 
> > > > cases?
> > > > > > No steps we just scale the x-axis the numbers are provided in my slides sent 
> > > > > > today.
> > > > I hope this help,
> > > > Niseem
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 4/16/21 12:59 PM, Niseem via Star-fcv-l wrote:
> > > > > Hi ShinIchi,
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for your email!
> > > > >
> > > > > As you know life is not very start all the time so I do my best to get some 
> > > > > of what you asked for.
> > > > > Please find attached the plots for 10-30 central Au+Au at 200 GeV. This is 
> > > > > related to what I will show at the APS.
> > > > > When I have more time (since I'm changing house those days) I will send you 
> > > > > more info as you asked.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Niseem
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 4/16/21 11:23 AM, ShinIchi Esumi via Star-fcv-l wrote:
> > > > > > Dear Niseem
> > > > > > I do not see any of the supporting analysis plots of your results here yet 
> > > > > > that you’ve promised…
> > > > > > Best regards, ShinIchi
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Apr 15, 2021, at 17:21, Niseem via Star-fcv-l <star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov> 
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi All,
> > > > > > > Please find the page for the preliminary-plots at this link,
> > > > > > > https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/blog/niseem/preliminary-plots-quadrupole-charge-separation
> > > > > > > Thanks, Niseem
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: Niseem via Star-fcv-l <star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov>
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Star-fcv-l] STAR presentation by Niseem Magdy Abdelwahab 
> > > > > > > Abdelrahman for APS April Meeting 2021 submitted for review
> > > > > > > Date: April 15, 2021 16:57:15 JST
> > > > > > > To: ShinIchi Esumi via Star-fcv-l <star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov>
> > > > > > > Reply-To: Niseem <niseemmagdy AT yahoo.com>, "STAR Flow, Chirality and Vorticity PWG" 
> > > > > > > <star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dear ShinIchi,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So sorry I did not see this email before.
> > > > > > > I can do that in fast way for the normal R_2. I will need more time to create 
> > > > > > > all of the requested plots.
> > > > > > > I will work on that now and hope to send you some plots very soon.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > Niseem
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 4/15/21 2:25 AM, ShinIchi Esumi via Star-fcv-l wrote:
> > > > > > > > Dear Niseem
> > > > > > > > I was hoping at least to see some of the answers to my earlier 
> > > > > > > > questions/requests
> > > > > > > > (attached below) to your pwg presentation last week before approving your 
> > > > > > > > plots as
> > > > > > > > preliminary for the APS presentation, but I did not see the answers, maybe 
> > > > > > > > I’ve missed?
> > > > > > > > I remember you have mentioned that you would be indicating your previous 
> > > > > > > > presentation
> > > > > > > > and analysis notes for the possible answers that you could point-out. I would 
> > > > > > > > also think
> > > > > > > > the step-by-step guidance of your analysis and correction procedures would 
> > > > > > > > also be
> > > > > > > > appreciated and useful in the conference like APS, since people like to see 
> > > > > > > > what you
> > > > > > > > really did.
> > > > > > > > Best regards, ShinIchi
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > From: ShinIchi Esumi <esumi.shinichi.gn AT u.tsukuba.ac.jp>
> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Star-fcv-l] FCV PWG meeting on 7/Apr/2021 Wed. 9:30AM at BNL
> > > > > > > > > Date: April 8, 2021 1:39:00 JST
> > > > > > > > > To: "STAR Flow, Chirality and Vorticity PWG" <star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Dear Niseem
> > > > > > > > > Thanks for the correct link in the chat window :
> > > > > > > > > https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/blog/niseem/quadrupole-charge-separation-measurements-auau-collisions-implications-chiral-magnetic-w
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks for the plots in our backup slides.
> > > > > > > > > Could you overlay 2 or 4 data sets from p19 in one plot (A),
> > > > > > > > > and show their relation to p20 in (B), then to p21 in (C),
> > > > > > > > > for both data and ampt side-by-side : (A,B,C) 3 plots x 2 case?
> > > > > > > > > and for a few centrality cases and a few q2 selections? : 3 plots x (3+3) 
> > > > > > > > > cases?
> > > > > > > > > Maybe also for a few pT windows as you did in p12? : 3 plots x 3 cases?
> > > > > > > > > And also for a few <Ach> window as you did in p16? : 3 plots x 3 cases?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > And I would also like to see the analysis steps
> > > > > > > > > S -> S’ -> S” for both data and ampt                            : 3 plots x 3 
> > > > > > > > > cases?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Sorry to ask you too much, though.
> > > > > > > > > I would like to see these plots in order to understand the analysis better,
> > > > > > > > > which could also be helpful (or even used) for your APS/DNP talk?
> > > > > > > > > Best regards, ShinIchi
> > > > > > > On 4/15/21 3:05 AM, Niseem via Star-fcv-l wrote:
> > > > > > > > Hi Prithwish,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks for your nice comments, please find my updated slides at the same link
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/presentations/aps-april-meeting-2021/characterization-quadrupole-charge-separation-200-gev-implicati
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > slide#7 Mention how centrality was done.
> > > > > > > > I did not understand what you mean do i need to say that we do centrality by 
> > > > > > > > cutting on multiplicity?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > For the AMPT data I'm using the a published plots which i added reference to 
> > > > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > Niseem
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On 4/13/21 4:01 PM, Prithwish Tribedy via Star-fcv-l wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Hello Niseem,
> > > > > > > > >    The slides look good. I have a few comments -- with these included I sign 
> > > > > > > > > off.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Since you have new preliminary results please follow the STAR policy of 
> > > > > > > > > making a page (if you haven't done so yet). Regarding the model plots, I 
> > > > > > > > > would also request you to make the AMPT data available on RCF somewhere.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > General comments:
> > > > > > > > > 1. I think we need to make a point that this analysis is promising and still 
> > > > > > > > > in the exploratory phase as we need more time to explore the sensitivity to 
> > > > > > > > > different background scenarios. Maybe some help from the theorists would be 
> > > > > > > > > welcome. Also, isobar data may help to establish the efficacy of the 
> > > > > > > > > observable. It would be great if you can add a few comments along these lines.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 2. Please make sure not only every plot but each panel has a label saying either "STAR 
> > > > > > > > > Preliminary" or "AMPT".
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 3. Put more details about the AMPT model on the slides. In particular, the 
> > > > > > > > > version, link to publications wherever applicable.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Specific comments on the slides:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > slide#4: "Prior/ongoing" --> "Prior"
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >   "make more discerning" --> "make a discerning"
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > slide#6: You need to define what "f" (or "f_q") is.
> > > > > > > > > What is the value of "f" on lower right plot ?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > slide#7 "Run-11 data" --> "data from year 2011"
> > > > > > > > > Mention how centrality was done.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > slide #8:
> > > > > > > > > "The correlator response in " --> "The correlator response to" (this sounds 
> > > > > > > > > better)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > slide#9: Put the centrality for AMPT on this plot.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Slide#10:
> > > > > > > > > Somewhere on this slide you need to put a quantitative statement. How about:
> > > > > > > > > "Variation of q_2 leading to ~30% variation of v_2 in 10-30% centrality does not 
> > > > > > > > > lead to any significant variation of R_{Ψ2}" ?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Slide#11:
> > > > > > > > > Left plot inset requires more labels for x and y axes.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Slide#12:
> > > > > > > > > This is the best place to put the comment on the exploratory nature of this 
> > > > > > > > > study and add that more model  studies on sensitivity to background underway 
> > > > > > > > > after the last bullet.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > > > > Prithwish
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On 2021-04-10 15:53, webmaster--- via Star-fcv-l wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > Dear star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov members,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Niseem Magdy Abdelwahab Abdelrahman (niseemmagdy AT yahoo.com) has submitted a
> > > > > > > > > > material for a review, please have a look:
> > > > > > > > > > https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/node/54618
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > ---
> > > > > > > > > > If you have any problems with the review process, please contact
> > > > > > > > > > webmaster AT www.star.bnl.gov
> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > Star-fcv-l mailing list
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