STAR Flow, Chirality and Vorticity PWG

["Xu, Zhangbu" <xzb AT bnl.gov>]

Dear Jie:

 

I am flattered by you compliment about my UPC background and willingness to take my suggestions.

In fact, if you started UPC work in 2017, you probably have more experience than me already.

We do have a working group called LFSUPC, which has a collective decades of experience and institutional memories on UPC physics.

I do hope that you take advantage on that for your analysis.

Nevertheless, I did write the ZDC SMD proposal and build the ZDC-SMD with a small group of collaborators two decades ago.

 

From you replies, I do have a couple of suggestions, and I hope that you take it constructively.

 

1. My understanding of STAR collaboration policy is that no one “owns” a physics program personally and anyone
   should be able to choose any topics which interest them. This has served STAR well.
   “As we mentioned, initially the analysis is motivated by the anisotropy in small systems in pp, ep, etc,
   during the discussion at one of the ISMD workshops around 2017-2018. “
   This claim does not add any entitlement or disqualification of working on a purely diffractive and exclusive process.
   I would appreciate that you state “STAR has proposed in 2003 to use ZDC SMD as a measure of reaction plane and
   study rho spin alignment in UPC diffractive photoproduction.
   I am interested in this topic, and we will see if we can confirm this phenomenon and/or discover something new.”
2. No one else has shown publicly any analysis of STAR data using ZDC SMD on UPC data.
   You are doing that, which is good. The more people work on this, the better.

However, the motivation was clearly written in the proposal of the detector you used for the same purpose.
The wheel has been invented two decades ago.
I do take issues with the statements:
“The last time when I first discuss it at PWG ~1 year ago with my naive idea on the ZDC-SMD plane
(for example two points to define a line, the impact parameter), 
many people question the event plane reconstruction by ZDC-SMD in UPC, argued what’s mechanism behind,
the neutrons may be just randomly distributed, and suggestions also made, for example using mix-event. …
Now it’s great for me to know that people already had almost the same idea many years ago, so i am not doing something totally wrong…”

First, it is the analyzer’s sole responsibility of doing a thorough literature search before claiming novelty.
It added ZERO point to the originality of your idea no matter how much effort you have put in or how many people
who surround you were not aware of what has been done or proposed.

Secondly, it shows that you discussed the subject in the wrong working group (apologize to FCV colleague).
I would be happy to see that the original idea is proven wrong, and your analysis may reveal that in the future. But until then,
you have to acknowledge the motivation written in the proposal and endorsed by the collaboration as the original idea no more no less.

 

I am not afraid of being labelled as biased publicly since neither the original idea in the proposal nor the second one whatever that is
is my making and I do not have an official role in the collaboration to enforce anything I said.

But I do hope that there are some basic foundations we agree on so that we can have productive discussions within the collaboration.

 

Sincerely,

 

Zhangbu Xu

 

From: Jie Zhao <jiezhao1119 AT hotmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, March 2, 2022 at 11:03 PM
To: "Xu, Zhangbu" <xzb AT bnl.gov>
Cc: "STAR Flow, Chirality and Vorticity PWG" <star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov>
Subject: Re: [Star-fcv-l] FCV PWG meeting on 02/Mar/2022 Wed. 9:30 AM at BNL

 

Dear Zhangbu,

 

Thanks for your nice comments, indeed it’s great to know that, and i am of course happy to refer to it. 

 

As we mentioned, initially the analysis is motivated by the anisotropy in small systems in pp, ep, etc, during the discussion at one of the ISMD workshops around 2017-2018. 

I am certainly not claiming flow, we are analyzing anisotropies with the traditional RP method, and this has interesting relevance to the ongoing discussion of small system flow from my naive views, so i put question mark there.

 

The last time when I first discuss it at PWG ~1 year ago with my naive idea on the ZDC-SMD plane (for example two points to define a line, the impact parameter), 

many people question the event plane reconstruction by ZDC-SMD in UPC, argued what’s mechanism behind, the neutrons may be just randomly distributed, and suggestions also made, 

for example using mix-event. 

So i look back STAR 2017 UPC paper, found that there are some discussions about the GDRs i am thinking of which maybe one of the reasons. So this time i add some of the discussions on this, with question mark to get more comments from people.

https://lists.bnl.gov/pipermail/star-fcv-l/Week-of-Mon-20210412/000772.html   

https://www.star.bnl.gov/protected/lfsupc/jiezhao/bulk/test20181128.pdf   

https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/system/files/test20211012.pdf  

 

Now it’s great for me to know that people already had almost the same idea many years ago, so i am not doing something totally wrong, though i still have concerns about whether the analysis is correct or not.

BTW, but i am not aware of anyone who’s doing anisotropic studies with these data using ZDC-SMD plane.

 

Of cause you had many years of experience on UPC, your suggestions are always welcome!

 

Best regards,

Jie

 

On Mar 3, 2022, at 10:17 AM, Xu, Zhangbu <xzb AT bnl.gov> wrote:

 

Dear Jie: 

 

Thank you for the nice results. 

 

I would mainly comment on your motivation slide#2. 

 

Just from a historic perspective: 

 

Please refer to the ZDC SMD proposal where the reaction plane for UPC and specifically for rho alignment is discussed:

https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/files/ZDC-SMD.pdf

and reference therein. I feel that citing just references in UPC rho in 2002 and 2017 is incomplete since 
the ZDC SMD references are more directly relevant to what you are doing. And it is one of the three motivations 
why we built ZDC SMD. 

 

A second historic reference is the paper (#323) now under collaboration review:

There is an additional interference resulting in spin alignment which has not been discussed before.

 

I feel that it is important those references are added when you discuss about the physics motivation.

I don’t think that just putting question marks in what motivate the study is correct.

One can argue that we know nothing about UPC and argue that the diffractive rho production is flow.

I don’t think that this is justified. 

 

I will be happy to discuss this. 

 

Thanks!

Zhangbu 

 

From: Star-fcv-l <star-fcv-l-bounces AT lists.bnl.gov> on behalf of Jie Zhao via Star-fcv-l <star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov>
Reply-To: Jie Zhao <jiezhao1119 AT hotmail.com>, "STAR Flow, Chirality and Vorticity PWG" <star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov>
Date: Wednesday, March 2, 2022 at 9:24 AM
To: "Zhao, Jie" <zhao656 AT purdue.edu>, "STAR Flow, Chirality and Vorticity PWG" <star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov>
Subject: Re: [Star-fcv-l] FCV PWG meeting on 02/Mar/2022 Wed. 9:30 AM at BNL

 

Dear All,

 

please find my slides for today’s meeting below:

https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/system/files/test20211012.pdf

 

Best regards,

Jie Zhao

 

On Mar 1, 2022, at 11:28 PM, Zhao, Jie via Star-fcv-l <star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov> wrote:

 

Dear Conveners,

 

if possible, i would like to present few slides updates of our previous analysis on the “correction study in UPC”, thanks!

 

Best regards!

Jie

 

 

On Feb 28, 2022, at 2:34 PM, subhash via Star-fcv-l <star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov> wrote:

 

Dear All,

We shall have our FCV PWG meeting this Wednesday (02/Mar/2022) at 9:30 AM in BNL (NY time zone). If you would like to present, please let us know. Please try posting your slides by Tuesday. The agenda items will be collected at:
https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/blog/jjiastar/bulkcorr

Thanks and regards,
Jiangyong, Prithwish and Subhash


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