STAR Flow, Chirality and Vorticity PWG

["Wang, Fuqiang" <fqwang AT purdue.edu>]

Frank,

Please see my comments below. 

Best regards,
Fuqiang

> On Sep 5, 2023, at 6:43 AM, Frank Geurts <geurts AT rice.edu> wrote:
> 
> Dear Fuqiang, Charles -
> 
> As Sooraj asked and Charles confirmed, the fit results shown in the plot, 
> combined with the resolution numbers shown on this poster, will lead to the 
> rho00 numbers that we asked you to remove from the poster in the first 
> place.
> 
> Therefore, we ask that you remove those fit results from this STAR poster 
> and keep to showing the fits only.
> 
> At this time, your analysis shows inconsistencies with STAR’s published 
> results. The latter have gone through the same rigorous vetting process 
> that each STAR paper goes through,

You assume so. I requested evidence be provided that those raw data and raw 
distributions had been properly reviewed. Nothing has been offered so far. I 
note that the PAs were present when I made this request. 

Each GPC review has an individual mailing list and is archived. Please put me 
onto that GPC mailing list. 

I note that this paper had been put in review by a prior GPC. That review 
failed and the GPC chair gave up. 

> to which you also contributed and signed off on.  STAR needs to understand 
> how or where this inconsistency arises by at least scrutinizing these 
> analyses with that same rigor.  As soon as we understand this, STAR has 
> policies and procedures to inform the community.
> 
> Sending out mixed messages to the community based on raw data with 
> unanimous and strong objections from the PWG conveners and the PAC is not 
> in the interest of the community, let alone STAR. It is STAR’s duty to 
> resolve this in a timely manner, and STAR management will address this in 
> the following weeks.
> 
> Regarding the poster, please follow our PAC’s last request so that Charles’ 
> poster can be shown on behalf of our collaboration.
> 

Sooraj mentioned that this can still be printed. I’ll blacken out the fit 
numbers on the poster. 
 
Best regards,
Fuqiang


> Best regards,
> 
> -Frank
> 
> 
> ______________________________________________________
> Frank Geurts   (he/him)
> Professor of Physics & Astronomy • Rice University, Houston TX
> T.W. Bonner Nucl. Lab.          • Dept. of Physics & Astronomy
> office 713-348-5314             • web 
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>  
> 
>> On Sep 5, 2023, at 1:21 AM, Wang, Fuqiang via Star-fcv-l 
>> <star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov> wrote:
>> 
>> Dear Sooraj,
>> 
>> The fit number is directly from the fit. Presenting the plots with fit but 
>> deliberately hiding the fit numbers is not scientific. Even without the 
>> numbers, one can in principle get to the final number. Why hide? 
>> 
>> The reason you do not approve our raw data is because our raw data 
>> disagree with the other group’s raw data. But the raw inv. mass 
>> distributions from which the other group’s raw data were derived were not 
>> made available to us. Disapproving one because of inconsistency with the 
>> other which is not made available to check is not right. I hope you see 
>> the logic. 
>> 
>> We have made compromise to take off the raw data vs. energy plot and 
>> replace it with the <cos^2> vs. mass plots. These plots were in fact 
>> recommended by FCV convener to replace the raw data vs. energy plot. If 
>> the latest version poster CW sent can be printed at Rice for tomorrow’s 
>> poster session, we will be glad to use that version. If not, we will have 
>> to use the original poster for tomorrow’s poster presentation. I take full 
>> responsibility for this action. 
>> 
>> When we are up front and be open to the community, we are better off. If 
>> we hide things from the community, we will be bitten. It’s to the best 
>> interest of STAR and the field that we are completely open that the entire 
>> community is made aware of the full extent and implication of our data, 
>> before tons of time/effort/funds are spent to try to explain a potentially 
>> wrong data. This is the duty and responsibility of a scientist and a 
>> scientific collaboration. 
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> Fuqiang
>> 
>> 
>>>> On Sep 4, 2023, at 6:59 PM, Sooraj Radhakrishnan via Star-fcv-l 
>>>> <star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov> wrote:
>>> 
>>> ---- External Email: Use caution with attachments, links, or sharing 
>>> data ----
>>> Hi Charles,
>>>    Thanks. In that case please remove those rho numbers from the panels 
>>> 
>>> Sooraj 
>>> 
>>>> On Mon, Sep 4, 2023 at 6:43 PM Robertson, Charles William 
>>>> <rober558 AT purdue.edu> wrote:
>>> Yes, that's correct.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Get Outlook for AndroidFrom: Sooraj Radhakrishnan 
>>> <skradhakrishnan AT lbl.gov>
>>> Sent: Monday, September 4, 2023 6:37:46 PM
>>> To: Robertson, Charles William <rober558 AT purdue.edu>
>>> Cc: STAR Flow, Chirality and Vorticity PWG <star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov>
>>> 
>>> Subject: Re: [Star-fcv-l] STAR presentation by Charles Robertson for 
>>> Quark Matter 2023 submitted for review
>>> ---- External Email: Use caution with attachments, links, or sharing data 
>>> ----
>>> Hi Charles,
>>>   To understand, the numbers you have on the panels in the new plot is 
>>> rho_obs, which divided by the resolution numbers you have on the left box 
>>> are the rho00 numbers from the removed plot, is that correct? 
>>> 
>>> thanks
>>> Sooraj
>>> 
>>>> On Mon, Sep 4, 2023 at 6:03 PM Robertson, Charles William 
>>>> <rober558 AT purdue.edu> wrote:
>>> Hello Sooraj,
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Those rho00 numbers are different from the ones on the plot we removed. 
>>> Those numbers are from the fit, and they were on the slides we requested 
>>> preliminary for. It's my understanding that those numbers were part of 
>>> the approved progress plots.
>>> 
>>> -CW
>>> 
>>> Get Outlook for Android
>>> 
>>> From: Sooraj Radhakrishnan <skradhakrishnan AT lbl.gov>
>>> Sent: Monday, September 4, 2023 5:35:23 PM
>>> To: STAR Flow, Chirality and Vorticity PWG <star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov>
>>> Cc: Robertson, Charles William <rober558 AT purdue.edu>
>>> Subject: Re: [Star-fcv-l] STAR presentation by Charles Robertson for 
>>> Quark Matter 2023 submitted for review
>>> 
>>> ---- External Email: Use caution with attachments, links, or sharing data 
>>> ----
>>> Hi Charles,
>>>   Thanks for the update and new version of the poster. What are the rho00 
>>> numbers you have on the panels in your new plot? Are they the same 
>>> numbers as in the plot you removed? If so, please remove these numbers 
>>> 
>>> thanks
>>> Sooraj
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Mon, Sep 4, 2023 at 4:47 PM Robertson, Charles William via Star-fcv-l 
>>>> <star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov> wrote:
>>> Hello Sooraj,
>>> 
>>> As Fuqiang mentioned, we presented a consistency check using the 
>>> conventional method that agreed with our poster results.  Without the 
>>> requested raw distributions from the other group, we could not perform 
>>> any additional checks. So, it's unclear how this discrepancy could have 
>>> been resolved before QM. 
>>> 
>>> In order to move things forward, I have removed our raw rho00 vs. energy 
>>> plot at the FCV convenor's recommendation. This plot has been replaced by 
>>> our raw <cos^2> vs mass plots for the four energies.
>>> 
>>> The updated poster can be found in the same place. Here's the link: 
>>> https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/system/files/CWR-QM2023_poster_6c_0.pdf
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> -CW
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> From: Star-fcv-l <star-fcv-l-bounces AT lists.bnl.gov> on behalf of Sooraj 
>>> Radhakrishnan via Star-fcv-l <star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov>
>>> Sent: Monday, September 4, 2023 12:44 PM
>>> To: Wang, Fuqiang <fqwang AT purdue.edu>
>>> Cc: Sooraj Radhakrishnan <skradhakrishnan AT lbl.gov>; 
>>> webmaster AT star.bnl.gov <webmaster AT star.bnl.gov>; STAR Flow, Chirality and 
>>> Vorticity PWG <star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov>
>>> Subject: Re: [Star-fcv-l] STAR presentation by Charles Robertson for 
>>> Quark Matter 2023 submitted for review
>>> ---- External Email: Use caution with attachments, links, or sharing data 
>>> ----
>>> Hi Fuqiang,
>>>    We had discussions at the pre QM specifically on CWs poster where 
>>> conveners have pointed out (and the PAs agree) that the raw rho00 from 
>>> CWRs analysis differs from the raw rho00 from the publication. The reason 
>>> of this discrepancy is not understood and conveners, PAC and 
>>> spokespersons have expressed their unwillingness to show the raw rho00 
>>> from CWRs analysis publicly before we understand the differences. This 
>>> was made very clear in the discussion. The discrepancy is still an 
>>> internal matter for STAR to understand and resolve
>>> 
>>> Best
>>> Sooraj
>>> 
>>>> On Mon, Sep 4, 2023 at 11:34 AM Wang, Fuqiang <fqwang AT purdue.edu> wrote:
>>> Sooraj,
>>> 
>>> You stated discussions “with the PAs conveners and spokespersons”. I 
>>> checked with CW; we were not involved in those discussions. Please 
>>> clarify what were discussed, and the concrete reason(s) why our raw data 
>>> plot needs to be removed. 
>>> 
>>> I will respond further after seeing Rosi’s STAR overview talk. 
>>> 
>>> Best regards,
>>> Fuqiang
>>> 
>>>> On Sep 4, 2023, at 11:18 AM, Sooraj Radhakrishnan via Star-fcv-l 
>>>> <star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> ---- External Email: Use caution with attachments, links, or sharing 
>>>> data ----
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Hi CWR,
>>>>   Following the many discussions we have had over the past week and 
>>>> during the pre QM meeting with the PAs conveners and spokespersons, 
>>>> please revise your poster with the plot comparing raw data from your 
>>>> analysis with the published results removed and instead with the steps 
>>>> of your correction procedure  (you can move some of the text on the 
>>>> lower box to the box now saying 'Raw Results'). Please upload your 
>>>> updated poster with this change so that we can sign off on it
>>>> 
>>>> Best,
>>>> Sooraj
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Aug 24, 2023 at 10:30 PM webmaster--- via Star-fcv-l 
>>>> <star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov> wrote:
>>>> Dear star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov members,
>>>> 
>>>> Charles Robertson (rober558 AT purdue.edu) has submitted a material for a  
>>>> review, please have a look:
>>>> https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/node/64865
>>>> 
>>>> Deadline: 2023-09-03
>>>> ---
>>>> If you have any problems with the review process, please contact  
>>>> webmaster AT www.star.bnl.gov
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Star-fcv-l mailing list
>>>> Star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov
>>>> https://lists.bnl.gov/mailman/listinfo/star-fcv-l
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Sooraj Radhakrishnan
>>>> Research Scientist,
>>>> Department of Physics
>>>> Kent State University
>>>> Kent, OH 44243
>>>> Physicist Postdoctoral Affiliate
>>>> Nuclear Science Division
>>>> Lawrence Berkeley National Lab
>>>> MS70R0319, One Cyclotron Road
>>>> Berkeley, CA 94720
>>>> Ph: 510-495-2473
>>>> Email: skradhakrishnan AT lbl.gov
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Star-fcv-l mailing list
>>>> Star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov
>>>> https://lists.bnl.gov/mailman/listinfo/star-fcv-l
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Star-fcv-l mailing list
>>> Star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov
>>> https://lists.bnl.gov/mailman/listinfo/star-fcv-l
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Sooraj Radhakrishnan
>>> Research Scientist,
>>> Department of Physics
>>> Kent State University
>>> Kent, OH 44243
>>> 
>>> Physicist Postdoctoral Affiliate
>>> Nuclear Science Division
>>> Lawrence Berkeley National Lab
>>> MS70R0319, One Cyclotron Road
>>> Berkeley, CA 94720
>>> Ph: 510-495-2473
>>> Email: skradhakrishnan AT lbl.gov
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Sooraj Radhakrishnan
>>> Research Scientist,
>>> Department of Physics
>>> Kent State University
>>> Kent, OH 44243
>>> 
>>> Physicist Postdoctoral Affiliate
>>> Nuclear Science Division
>>> Lawrence Berkeley National Lab
>>> MS70R0319, One Cyclotron Road
>>> Berkeley, CA 94720
>>> Ph: 510-495-2473
>>> Email: skradhakrishnan AT lbl.gov
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Star-fcv-l mailing list
>>> Star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov
>>> https://lists.bnl.gov/mailman/listinfo/star-fcv-l
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