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  • From: Nihar Sahoo <nihar AT rcf.rhic.bnl.gov>
  • To: Youqi Song <youqi.song AT yale.edu>
  • Cc: STAR HardProbes PWG <star-hp-l AT lists.bnl.gov>
  • Subject: Re: [Star-hp-l] (Reschedule to have) HP-pwg meeting this week
  • Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2022 18:49:01 +0530

Hi Youqi,

Yes, it is ok from my side.
And thank you for creating this link.
I have entered your preliminary results in this link:
https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/pwg/jet-correlations/jetcorr-pwg-preliminary-plots

Cheers
Nihar

On 2022-10-02 00:31, Youqi Song wrote:
Hi Nihar,

I assume these plots are approved now? I created a post just with the
plots:
https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/blog/youqi/Multidimensional-jet-substructure-measurement-unfolded-machine-learning-method-200-GeV-pp
, so you could link them to the list of preliminary plots from HP PWG.
Thanks!

Best,
Youqi

On Wed, Sep 28, 2022 at 12:54 PM Nihar Sahoo <nihar AT rcf.rhic.bnl.gov>
wrote:

Hi Youqi,

Please find my replies inline.

On 2022-09-28 20:41, Youqi Song wrote:
Hi Nihar,

To implement -4% efficiency, we looped over each track in the
embedding files and generated a random number from a uniform
distribution from 0 to 1, and if the random number is greater than
0.96, we dropped that track when clustering jets.

Interesting, let's discuss this after HQ conference. For STAR
preliminary, it is Ok what you have.
Please remind us these topics in your next presentations.


I lowered the y-axis limit and updated the figures on slides 19
and 20
here:


https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/system/files/prelim_request_092822.pdf

All your plots look great.


They haven't announced the timetable yet, so we are not sure how
long
the talks need to be, but I can try to get a draft done by the end
of
the week.
Ok.

Cheers
Nihar


Best,
Youqi

On Wed, Sep 28, 2022 at 2:11 AM Nihar Sahoo
<nihar AT rcf.rhic.bnl.gov>
wrote:

Hi Youqi,

Please find my remaining question and comments inline.

On 2022-09-26 21:52, Youqi Song wrote:
Hi Nihar,

Thanks for the comments. Here are the updated slides




https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/system/files/prelim_request_092622.pdf

Yes, we can discuss the issue with smearing response after HQ.

As for the tracking uncertainty, it might be difficult to try
increasing it by 4%, since we are using official embedding and
can't
add tracks back.

Not sure, if I understand your procedure correctly, can you
inform
how
do you implement then -4% in embedding?

The ratio plot shown is MultiFold/RooUnfold, so I'm not sure
what
else
I can label the y-axis to be. Maybe it's more clear now that I
combined the ratio plot with the main plot of fig 1 in slide 15.

Ok, I understand now, I was thinking about the uncertainty band.
But
it
is ok.and your plot looks nice now on slide#15.

Can you please also lower y- axis for plots in slide#20 like in
slide15?

Looking forward to seeing your HQ presentation draft.

Cheers
Nihar


Best,
Youqi

On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 8:05 AM Nihar Sahoo
<nihar AT rcf.rhic.bnl.gov>
wrote:

Hello Youqi,

Please find my reply and queries inline.

On 2022-09-25 23:02, Youqi Song wrote:
Hi Nihar,

Thanks for the feedback. I updated the slides here:






https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/system/files/prelim_request_092522.pdf

Response to unnumbered comments:

Yes, I have three MCs, Herwig, Pythia8 and Pythia6, but what I
did
earlier was just to use Pythia6 for the *misses*, I still did
unfolding with each of the different MC prior shapes. (Now the
plots I
updated on Friday have both the misses and the unfolded parts
with
different priors). I plotted the fully corrected distributions
with
the different priors together with other sources of sys
uncertainty in
backup slide 1, and I just added a backup slide 2 with just
the
distributions due to prior shape variation.

Ok, that's fine.

Ok, I've added a slide after slide 15 to show the error
breakdown.

I like this comparison plot that is in Slide#16. It looks like
at
this
stage both Multifold and RooUnfold give roughly the same
uncertainties.
But we need to go through some other systematic uncertainties
(like
you
mentioned below) in future after HQ conf.

For detector and generator level pT shape smearing, I think
the
idea
is to add some smearing to the response matrix itself. Maybe
others
can correct me if I'm wrong.

Not sure if I understand this correctly, this needs a
discussion.
Could
you please bring this topic up in your next presentation?
But for HQ, I think it is Ok, the systematic uncertainties you
have
for
STAR preliminary.

Response to numbered comments:

1. For the detector response systematics, there are hadronic
correction, tower scale and tracking efficiency variation.
For hadronic correction, I see how it makes sense to vary in
data
as
well, but I learned that Raghav and Isaac didn't vary data for
their
analyses, so I decided to go with how they did it. Also, I
tried
varying data as well, but it didn't have a large effect. See
the
comparison plot I added in slide 12.

Good that you checked this for Hadronic correction.

For tower scale and tracking efficiency, I am not sure how we
would
vary data. Right now I decreased the tracking efficiency in
Geant
by
4%, and kept data the same. Do you mean that we should drop 4%
tracks
in data for this variation as well?

No, we don't change anything in the data. We can only change in
the
tracking efficiency from embedding.
You mentioned that you only decreased 4%. Have you considered
also
increasing 4% in your systematic uncertainties ? Just to
confirm.


2. Great, I updated the figure in the slide.

Good, Can you please lower your y-axis scale (say -0.01) so
that
all
the
markers can be seen properly, particularly at large M region?
(in a plot, all data points should be presented/shown clearly)


3. The star markers are MultiFold mass distributions divided
by
RooUnfold mass, so I'm not sure why we want a different style
marker?

Suggesting because ratio star marker no need to be the same
with
Multifold marker style. just for cosmetic.

The error bands are my unfolding systematics and RooUnfold
unfolding
systematics added in quadrature, and then divided by RooUnfold
mass
distribution.

Can you please label your Y-axis accordingly without labeling
as
"Ratio
with RooUnfold"?
It is not clear what you have written above. Is not it?
Please put pT range, "STAR Preliminary", and other info like
your
slide#19.


4. Great, agreed :)

5. I updated the legend to include "Detroit tune". I'm not
sure
we
want to push for the q vs g separation physics message. Maybe
Helen
and Raghav can say more about this, but my understanding is
that
the
quark and gluon jets can have similar fragmentation patterns
at
200
GeV and there can be ambiguity regarding e.g. if you want to
call
a
jet initiated from g->qqbar splitting a quark jet or a gluon
jet,
so
instead it might be more interesting to treat the jets with
different
M and Q as having different fragmentation patterns.

Ok, that makes sense to me.

Cheers
Nihar

Best,
Youqi

On Sun, Sep 25, 2022 at 8:23 AM Nihar Sahoo
<nihar AT rcf.rhic.bnl.gov>
wrote:

Hello Youqi,

Thank you for your update and this information.

I have the following comment and questions on your new
updated
results
(plots) and also your notes.

Regarding systematics,
- You might have noticed that the systematic errors for
multifold
have
gone up by a bit. This is because I realized that before,
when
doing
herwig and pythia8 shape variations, I was using pythia6
mass
distribution for the misses. Now I changed it so that the
misses
contribution
for prior shape variation is also weighted by the mass ratio
of
herwig
(pythia8) over pythia6.

Good that you found out this.
If I understand correctly, you have three MCs: Herwig,
Pythia8,
and
Pythia6. You used each of these MC mass distributions for the
mass
shape
variation for sys uncertainties. Earlier, you used Pythia6
for
all
these
cases, but now you corrected it with their respective mass
shapes.
Is
that correct?
Could you show (include in your backup) us those mass
distribution
variations using these three different MC priors? Curious to
see
the

difference due to different fragmentations in the mass
distribution.


- After talking with Isaac, I learned that unfolding
systematics
due to
variation of iteration number and variation of prior shape
were
treated
as correlated in previous analyses, while I originally had
these
added
in quadrature. Now I also treat them as correlated by just
taking
the
largest contribution to the unfolding systematic as the
overall
unfolding systematic, and add it in quadrature with detector
systematics.

Could you please separate out I) statistical uncertainty, II)
Correlated
Sys, and III) Uncorrelated Sys in your plot ( using Style2 in
slide#16)
without adding in quadrature? Please use a smaller marker
size
to
see
the stat. Error bar (even if it is small).

- Regarding the question whether there's anything still
missing
that's
raised during the meeting yesterday, I forgot to mention
that
we
haven't included detector and generator level pT shape
smearing.
This
is included in Raghav's and Isaac's analyses because they
did
1D
reweighting, but we are not sure if it should be included
for
multidimensional unfolding.

Hmm, Is not it that the total detector effects (tracking
efficiency
and
pT smearing) are considered using this multifold while you
create
something like the response matrix? What am I missing here?

Comments on your slide#12 (from this email preliminary
templet
slides)

1. Slide#12: As you have mentioned, you have varied only in
the
embedding, not in the data. General practice is to vary in
the
data.
But
not sure if that will be accurately translated to the
variation
in
the
data. It is interesting. i) Then how do you use tracking
efficiency
(+-4%) variation in embedding to get systematic
uncertainties?
ii)
Can
you please do a test where you apply the same variation in
the
data
and
use the respective variation in the embedding and then check
if
you
get
approximately the same sys. variation between the two cases
?(just
for
one case which one has a bigger effect).

2. I like Style-4 (slide18) of figure-1 if you don't want to
shift
the
published results. In this case, I would suggest using an
open
black

star for published results and a filled red marker for your
new
Multifold results. Then you plot your red filled star top on
the
published results (open back mark). In this case, you don't
need
to
shift the published results, and no confusion, and will look
good.

3. SLide19, Fig-1 ratio plot: In this plot, assuming
statistical
uncertainties cancel out. Are these bands only the ratio of
systematic
uncertainties? Can you use a separate marker style here in
order
to
avoid your mass distribution red star style?

4. SLide#21: Thank you for including raw distribution here.
It
looks

like there is a noticeable difference between raw and
Multifold
levels.

5. Slide#23: Thank you for including PYTHIA8 curves. I like
this
plot
and the comparison. Pythia8 and Data are consistent. You
could
point
out
that further study is ongoing to explore mass distribution
between q
vs.
g using this |Q| cut. This is the main physics of this |Q|
cut
here.

Right? (Can you label "PYTHiA8" as "PYTHIA8 Detroit tune" or
…STAR

tune?)

Cheers
Nihar

On 2022-09-23 20:29, Youqi Song via Star-hp-l wrote:
Hi all,

I have updated my slides for the preliminary request at:








https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/system/files/prelim_request_092222_0.pdf.

A few things that I would like to point out:

Regarding systematics,
- You might have noticed that the systematic errors for
multifold
have
gone up by a bit. This is because I realized that before,
when
doing
herwig and pythia8 shape variations, I was using pythia6
mass
distribution for the misses. Now I changed it so that the
misses
contribution for prior shape variation is also weighted by
the
mass
ratio of herwig (pythia8) over pythia6.
- After talking with Isaac, I learned that unfolding
systematics
due
to variation of iteration number and variation of prior
shape
were
treated as correlated in previous analyses, while I
originally
had
these added in quadrature. Now I also treat them as
correlated
by
just
taking the largest contribution to the unfolding systematic
as
the
overall unfolding systematic, and add it in quadrature with
detector
systematics.
- Regarding the question whether there's anything still
missing
that's
raised during the meeting yesterday, I forgot to mention
that
we
haven't included detector and generator level pT shape
smearing.
This
is included in Raghav's and Isaac's analyses because they
did
1D
reweighting, but we are not sure if it should be included
for
multidimensional unfolding.

Regarding plotting,
- For fig. 1, I made the mass distribution plot with the
same
data
points in 4 different styles.- For fig. 1 ratio plot, the
error
band
is now centered at 1 and is the quadrature of RooUnfold's
and
MultiFold's unfolding systematics, divided by the mean
values
from
RooUnfold.
- For fig. 2, I also included a plot of the M vs Q
correlation
with
raw data before unfolding.
- For fig. 3, I have pythia8 curves plotted together with my
unfolded
mass distributions.

Please let me know if you have any comments/suggestions.

Best,
Youqi

On Wed, Sep 21, 2022 at 5:47 PM Youqi Song
<youqi.song AT yale.edu>
wrote:

Hi all,

I have uploaded my slides here:
https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/blog/youqi/multifold092222

Best,
Youqi

On Wed, Sep 21, 2022 at 5:04 PM Tong Liu via Star-hp-l
<star-hp-l AT lists.bnl.gov> wrote:

Hi all,

Please find my pdf in this post:










https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/blog/tongliu/Tong-Lius-HP-PWG-updates

Tong Liu
Ph.D. Student '2023
Physics Dept., Yale University

Tel: 203-435-2130

On Wed, Sep 21, 2022 at 3:29 AM Nihar Sahoo via Star-hp-l
<star-hp-l AT lists.bnl.gov> wrote:
Hello All,

We got requests from Youqi and Tong to present their
results
for
the
Hot
Quark conference.
And during Youqi's talk at the collaboration meeting, we
did
not
get

time to have Q&A.
So let's meet this week to discuss their updates.

Youqi and Tong, can you please send link of your slides in
this
thread
again?
(I didn't get your previous emails, the reason I do not
know)

If anybody wants to discuss their results, please let us
know.

HP-pwg weekly meeting Drupal page:









https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/pwg/Hard-Probes/Weekly-HP-PWG-meeting

Zoom Meeting link:









https://bnl.zoomgov.com/j/1611419615?pwd=VW1hNm43ZDd5d2EvK2R4aEJsQ2ZNZz09
[1]
[1]
[1]
[1]
[1]

Meeting ID: 161 141 9615
Passcode: 744968

Thank you
Barbara, Yi, Sooraj, Nihar

On 2022-09-19 22:13, Nihar Sahoo via Star-hp-l wrote:
Hello All,

Last week we discussed a lot at the collaboration meeting,
If
there is
no urgent matter to discuss, let's cancel this week's HP
pwg
meeting.

Have a great week.

Thank you
Barbara, Yi, Sooraj, and Nihar
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