ePIC pfRICH mailing list

["Aschenauer, Elke" <elke AT bnl.gov>]

Dear Nikolai,

I really appreciate all you ideas. But they are coming too late. We have CD-3A in November and for this we need to be technically fully baselined.

So no more new R&D is possible we can just finish the R&D for the existing technologies. But why do you not take your ideas and make some baseline technologies for the 2nd detector. 

I think this would be cool because it would also introduce complementarity. If you go to last weeks tracking meeting you see we are trying to improve the ePIC tracking maybe not with the technologies you like, but we are trying.

Cheers elke

On Jun 19, 2023, at 18:04, Nikolai Smirnov <nikolai.smirnov AT yale.edu> wrote:

 Dear Alexander, 

Thank you for your mail.

I would prefer that the possibility will be found to chat (by phone, zoom, personal) and discuss all details.

I am sure that SciFi detectors are very useful for EIC detector(s) tracking setup.

Because leaders of the trackin team (and not only) do not try to find and convince any team to take a leadership role (first of all to prepare the R&D proposal) including the simulation, I will try to find somebody/team for such an activity.

Of course, real leaders (like Elke) can do it significantly more productively. but (as it was stressed) different priorities are more crucial than improving the tracking setup.

But most probable it will be the same "story" as with the proposal to consider miniGriPix tpc in a barrel setup to solve ALL PROBLEM.

The Main argument (against) was - there is no team.

Now: the team is "available", R&D is in progress (including readout X0 and cooling), but nobody from leaders would like to return to such a discussion (for some reason).

  Best regards, Nikolai.

On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 9:44 PM Kiselev, Alexander <ayk AT bnl.gov> wrote:

  Dear Nikolai,

  losing 5cm is a bit painful, especially if it turns out that we need to give up even more because of the clearance requirements (to the tracker and to the EmCal). But this is also a good reason to include a second aerogel layer and funneling mirrors option into the pfRICH baseline configuration, right during this mRICH -> pfRICH transition phase.

  Concerning the fiber tracker, I'm not sure the discussion in this mailing list is the best option to promote the idea. Try to get either the tracking group leadership, or ePIC leadership interested to the extent they start looking for new groups with the required expertise. Being realistic though, we are already too far in the process of setting up the overall ePIC configuration, to still make non-trivial changes (like SiPM cooling in this area, which we just got rid of by replacing bRICH SiPMs and b-endcap AC-LGADs by HRPPDs).

  Looking through your e-mail though: are you really sure that a SciFi tracker is overall a better solution than straightforward MPGDs?

  Cheers,

     Alexander.

---

From: Nikolai Smirnov <nikolai.smirnov AT yale.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2023 6:02 PM
To: Kiselev, Alexander <ayk AT bnl.gov>
Cc: Aschenauer, Elke <elke AT bnl.gov>; eic-projdet-pfrich-l AT lists.bnl.gov <eic-projdet-pfrich-l AT lists.bnl.gov>
Subject: Re: [Eic-projdet-pfrich-l] pfRICH space reduced by 5cm

 

Dear Alexander and Elke,

I got the impression that 5 cm is an essential factor for pfRICH performance.

 Let me once more point PRO and CON for SciFi at ePIC.

 EndCap position. After pfRICH in front of EMCAL. Z position.

   PRO:

    -- 4 layers 250 mkm diameter + "mechanical" support structure (honeycomb) --> dZ (thickness) ~ 2. mm, 0.2% X0, ~250 ps time resolution, mip efficiency >96%. resolution in RPHI ~100 mkm with "angle" information / measurement. (see Mu3E and LHCb).

    Data can be used as a "seed" for the track finding.

  Setup "needs" a second (the same) detector with a stereo angle to reconstruct the R-coordinate and improve the efficiency to ~100%.

  CON.

    -- readout: SiPM. It means a lot of channels (but it should be calculated) and -35 c cooling.

  Additional factor: such a detector can be considered for a barrel setup in a competition with gas detectors and "more Si" approach.

  Once more: it will be "natural" data as seed for a track finding. But with unskippable Pt cut - very unpleasant "parameter" of ePIC barrel tracking setup - lack of track finding and PID for low momentum particles ( significant part of the spectrum and Physics).

  As you know a lot of R&D, QA, mass production and detector utilization were done and available.

  The cost estimation can be done absolutely reliably.

  Possible R&D topics: Check the performance with 90 deg banding fibers (befor to connect to readout) to guarantee the position for SiPM in E||B for the endcap option.

   It was mentioned somewhere that the internal reflection works "perfect", but it should be checked (my opinion).

   Check the status (or maybe join) of R&D from the AMS-100 team.

  Of course, I missed something, but I am sure that you know better.

   Best regards, Nikolai.

 

On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 3:43 PM Kiselev, Alexander <ayk AT bnl.gov> wrote:

  Dear Elke,

  I believe you mean for the lever arm, rather than for the Bdl. Nikolai, one objection against a SciFi tracker may be the required channel count in order to get the same spatial resolution as a typical 1D MPGD can achieve. Although for pattern recognition purposes one may want to use a very fine pitch (and a 2+1D redundancy) anyway.

  Regards,

    Alexander.

---

From: Aschenauer, Elke
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2023 1:38 PM
To: Nikolai Smirnov
Cc: Aschenauer, Elke; Kiselev, Alexander; eic-projdet-pfrich-l AT lists.bnl.gov
Subject: Re: [Eic-projdet-pfrich-l] pfRICH space reduced by 5cm

Dear Nicolai,

yes but tracking detector planes needs also to be separated in space for the BdL, my 5cm request stands.

Cheers elke

On Jun 13, 2023, at 12:04, Nikolai Smirnov via Eic-projdet-pfrich-l <eic-projdet-pfrich-l AT lists.bnl.gov> wrote:

Dear All,

If this "5 cm request" is due to the "installation" of an additional tracking station, I would like to remind you that the best solution can be SciFibers.

I will need <1 cm in Z (compact), fast, low mass, and good tracking setup.

Best regards, Nikolai.

PS. It can be a rather "valuable" R&D and simulation activity, if the team (new, old) will stand up to prepare the proposal.

On Mon, Jun 12, 2023 at 10:52 AM Kiselev, Alexander via Eic-projdet-pfrich-l <eic-projdet-pfrich-l AT lists.bnl.gov> wrote:

  Hello colleagues,

  Not unexpectedly, as part of the ePIC e-endcap tracker optimization, the space allocated for the pfRICH was reduced by 5cm along the beam line.

  Alex, please we need realistic estimates of the overall envelope for the pfRICH vessel, especially at Rmax, Zmin and Zmax. Remember, the v03 pfRICH GDML geometry was still in a "few mm overlap" conflict with the neighboring subdetectors, meaning the clearances may have not been observed strictly, even before this 5cm reduction.

  Then we check with Chandra what the implications on the pfRICH performance are.

  All in all, it sounds like we should discuss the incorporation of other possible pfRICH extensions (either pyramid funneling mirrors or a second aerogel layer a la Belle II  or both) in the baseline configuration at our Thursday meeting, before the transition from mRICH to pfRICH is concluded in P6.

  Regards,

    Alexander.

 

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