sPHENIX tracking discussion

["Sondheim, Walter E" <sondheim AT lanl.gov>]

-----Original Message-----
From: Sondheim, Walter E 
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 9:40 AM
To: 'John Haggerty' <haggerty AT bnl.gov>; Itaru Nakagawa <itaru AT bnl.gov> 
(itaru AT bnl.gov) <itaru AT bnl.gov>
Cc: 'sphenix-tracking-l-bounces AT lists.bnl.gov' 
<sphenix-tracking-l-bounces AT lists.bnl.gov>
Subject: RE: [Sphenix-tracking-l] sPHENIX tracking meeting next week

Dear John and Itaru, I am glad to see you have both reached a similar 
conclusion that the sPHENIX tracking discussion certainly should include 
engineering support, weather it is on project or off. I also know that both 
Mike McCumber and Yasuyuki Akiba have been in discussion concerning how the 
current pixel ladder design can be reconfigured to give to hermetic layers. 
There are some basic parameters that need to be decided on first - from an 
engineering standpoint; Given that the goal is to have two hermetic layers 
around the beampipe - 1, What is the radius that these two layers should be 
configured for (currently the pixel sensors are at a radius of 25.0 and 50.0 
millimeters respectively).
2, How will these layers be installed/constructed? Will they be continuous 
barrels that will somehow be placed over the beampipe by breaking the vacuum? 
Will they again need to be made in sections as they are currently? 
3, Cooling - will these ladders again be cooled using 3M Novec coolant? 
4, Will the structural goal again be low mass and stable - leading again to a 
carbon composite type of structure.
5, Additional ladders mean additional Spiro boards, additional cables, 
additional mounting plates?
These are just a few points that come immediately to my mind - I am sure 
there may be more - specifically if there are additional layers for tracking, 
how will these layers be tied to the inner two layers of pixel ladders? 
Cheers,
Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: sphenix-tracking-l-bounces AT lists.bnl.gov 
[mailto:sphenix-tracking-l-bounces AT lists.bnl.gov] On Behalf Of John Haggerty
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 7:25 AM
To: Itaru Nakagawa <itaru AT bnl.gov>; sphenix-tracking-l AT lists.bnl.gov
Subject: Re: [Sphenix-tracking-l] sPHENIX tracking meeting next week

Itaru,

Yes, you're right, there is a mechanical engineering component that we'll 
have to get you help for here at BNL, but we're going to need to provide him 
or her with not only the existing drawings but guidance about what is 
actually possible to do in reconfiguring the pixels, for example, what kind 
of cable extensions are workable, where we can relocate electronics, and so 
on.  It seems to me that ideally, one would try to set up a ladder on the 
bench with something like the configuration needed in sPHENIX to make certain 
that the putative rearrangement would actually work before we engineered a 
final design.

There may be other or better ways to proceed, but we definitely have to start 
figuring out exactly what we want to do, and then try to create a team of 
experts who can help design and eventually accomplish it.

This would be a good topic for the tracking meeting on Friday; unfortunately, 
I have been unable to attend the last few of these, and I'm going to miss 
Friday's meeting as well, although the training I'm missing it for will allow 
me to resuscitate anyone who develops heart failure from thinking about it.  
I will try to attend these meetings in the future.

On 11/17/15 12:10 AM, Itaru Nakagawa wrote:
> Hi John,
>
>   Regarding reconfiguring pixel sensors, this job is mostly engineering.
> As you guys familiar, we don't have any mechanical engineers employed 
> in RIKEN. This is quite inefficient job for us to pursue.
> As the matter of fact that the last cost and schedule reviewers 
> recommended that pixel reconfiguration should be in the scope of the 
> sPHENIX project, we strongly believe that this is the job that BNL 
> should take a responsibility.
> We of cause are still responsible to make ladders available.
>
> Regards,
> -itaru
>
>
>
>
> On 2015/11/14 0:45, John Haggerty wrote:
>> Itaru,
>>
>> No, certainly nobody would suggest that you spend any time evaluating 
>> MAPS detectors, but starting from the pixels, we need to know soon is 
>> how feasible *is* the reconfiguration of pixels?  Specifically, we 
>> need to be able to show:
>>
>> 1- A mechanical design that shows all the available ladders 
>> configured into a 2*pi detector
>>
>> 2- We need to know how the electronics will be configured to read it 
>> out--where will it go?  Are there problems with a new configuration 
>> of the readout electronics (longer cables leading to reduced 
>> performance, noise pickup, or crosstalk)?
>>
>> 3- Is the cabling feasible?  Do cables come out both ends?
>>
>> 4- How is the detector supported, inserted, and removed?
>>
>> And, of course, last, but not least, how much does it all cost, and 
>> how long does it take?
>>
>> Item #1, 3,  and 4 probably takes a mechanical designer; we may have 
>> to work with you to provide such a person, although you may be able 
>> to do it yourself, I'm not sure what the state of the mechanical 
>> model is.  I would think that #2 would be best addressed by bench 
>> tests on a spare ladder.  And when we know those things, then we can 
>> feed the real pixels back to Tony so we can see how it performs.
>>
>> Of course, the outer layers need the same treatment, or more, since 
>> there are many new ideas and components, but it seems to me we need 
>> to develop more complete answers to these questions for the pixels 
>> straight away.
>>
>> On 11/12/15 11:53 PM, Itaru Nakagawa wrote:
>>> Hi Tony,
>>>
>>>    OK.
>>>
>>> -itaru
>>>
>>> On 2015/11/12 23:49, Frawley, Anthony wrote:
>>>> Dear Itaru,
>>>>
>>>> We have a group (LANL) who has a strong interest in a MAPS inner 
>>>> tracker, so this is of considerable interest to them.
>>>>
>>>> There is no suggestion that you guys should spend time studying a 
>>>> MAPS tracker.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Tony
>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> -----
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Itaru Nakagawa [itaru AT bnl.gov]
>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 12, 2015 10:09 PM
>>>> *To:* Frawley, Anthony; sphenix-tracking-l AT lists.bnl.gov
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Sphenix-tracking-l] sPHENIX tracking meeting next 
>>>> week
>>>>
>>>> Hi Tony,
>>>>
>>>>    I don't think we (RIKEN group) are the one who look into the 
>>>> MAPs option by spending our limited man power to do the study at 
>>>> the cost of slowing down the development of the silicon strip.
>>>> However,  I am open to *listen* to the idea to make the outer 
>>>> tracker with MAPS from anybody who comes up with the
>>>> 1) cost  and 2) schedule estimate in the level of reality of what 
>>>> we have for the silicon strip solution.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> -itaru
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2015/11/12 15:25, Frawley, Anthony wrote:
>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>
>>>>> First, a reminder that the next sPHENIX tracking meeting will be 
>>>>> November 20 (not tomorrow!).
>>>>>
>>>>> For our meeting on November 20, we have arranged for Luciano Musa 
>>>>> to call into the meeting at 9:00 am to give us a presentation 
>>>>> about what would be involved for us to implement MAPS pixels in a 
>>>>> tracker for PHENIX. This follows up on discussions with Leo 
>>>>> Greiner in Santa Fe, where he talked about some cost comparisons 
>>>>> of strips and MAPS pixels indicating that they would have similar cost.
>>>>>
>>>>> In addition to the discussion with Luciano, which should be quite 
>>>>> interesting, I will also be soliciting presentations from experts 
>>>>> on all four tracking options.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>> Tony
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
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>>
>


--
John Haggerty
email: haggerty AT bnl.gov
cell: 631 741 3358
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