Star-fst-l mailing list

["Tribedy, Prithwish" <ptribedy AT bnl.gov>]

Hi Zhenyu,

  Attached here are all the communication from 3M. So, our plan is to take two samples of NOVEC, one from the opened drum (which is contaminated for 5 years) and another from a new small container that was just opened. We'll request our chemistry colleagues to do KF test of both samples in their lab for water contamination and compare the results. 

Best,

Prithwish

From:Zhenyu Ye <yezhenyu2003 AT gmail.com>
Sent:Wednesday, September 29, 2021 3:18 PM
To:Tribedy, Prithwish <ptribedy AT bnl.gov>
Cc:Star-fst L <star-fst-l AT lists.bnl.gov>
Subject:Re: [Star-fst-l] NOVEC 7200

 

>Thanks. Prithwish.

>Can you forward that concrete suggestion to the list from 3M that we got a concrete suggestion from 3M that we >need to make sure the water contamination in our NOVEC liquid from the opened drum should be below 90 ppm.

Prithwish Tribedy

Physics Department, Brookhaven National Laboratory

Upton, NY 11973, USA

Phone: 631-344-8904, 631-344-3853

E-mail: ptribedy AT bnl.gov

---

From: Prithwish Tribedy <ptribedy AT icloud.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2021 3:20 PM
To: Tribedy, Prithwish <ptribedy AT bnl.gov>
Subject: Fwd: Re: Re: NOVEC 7200

 

Prithwish Tribedy

Physics Department, Brookhaven National Laboratory
Upton, NY 11973, USA
Phone: +1 631-344-8904, 631-344-3853

Fax: +1 631-344-4206
E-mail: ptribedy AT icloud.com

Begin forwarded message:

From: Larry Stang <lstang AT mmm.com>

Subject: RE: Re: Re: NOVEC 7200

Date: September 13, 2021 at 5:34:33 PM EDT

To: Prithwish Tribedy <ptribedy AT icloud.com>, Karl Manske <kjmanske AT mmm.com>

Cc: Philip Brockelman <psbrockelman AT mmm.com>, Thomas Brodbeck <tjbrodbeck AT mmm.com>

Hi Prithwish,

 

I cover heat transfer applications and with fluid beyond its shelf life as Karl states below is likely to be fine. The fluid in general can be used indefinitely as long as used within 3M guidelines.

 

In agreement with Karl, the unopened drum should be fine to use. Then the opened drum as long as it is virgin fluid should also be find but as Karl also suggests the biggest concern is atmospheric water condensation. Inspect the drum to see if there is any water visibly floating on the surface and measure the RH of the head space. If there is no water and the RH is close to ambient or lower you should be find. As suggested below a Karl Fischer test can also be done to see how much water content there is. Anything less than about 90ppm by weight should be fine.

 

If the fluid is used it can be tested by GC and if impurities are found can be treated/filtered. This can be done with a variety of materials to remove contaminates. Silica gel or mole sieve for water, activated carbon (suitable for drinking water) for solubilized hydrocarbons, activated alumina for decomposition products and a fine particulate filter for small solids. This is likely to get most everything that could cause an issue with the fluid. Regarding the need for filtration, decomposition products are highly unlikely unless the fluid was heated to more than 200°C and solubilized hydrocarbons are also dielectric with low solubility and unlikely to cause problems from the open drum. The most likely issue for you would be water and particulates.

 

The last resort then is disposal. The fluid would need to be shipped to an incinerator facility that can handle fluorinated materials.

 

In short, to reiterate, the fluid should be fine. If you suspect water, use a desiccant. If you suspect particulates use a filter. If the fluid contains contaminates use activated carbon + particulate filter. If the application is too critical, dispose of used fluid.

 

Let me know if you have further questions or would like to have a phone call to discuss in detail.

 

Best regards,

Larry Stang | Applications and Development Engineer
Electronics Materials Solutions Division
3M Center, 236-2B-01 | St. Paul, MN 55144-1000 | United States
Office: +1 651-737-9653
lstang AT mmm.com

 

 

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From: Prithwish Tribedy <ptribedy AT icloud.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2021 10:05 PM
To: Karl Manske <kjmanske AT mmm.com>
Cc: Philip Brockelman <psbrockelman AT mmm.com>; Thomas Brodbeck <tjbrodbeck AT mmm.com>; Larry Stang <lstang AT mmm.com>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Re: NOVEC 7200

 

Hello Karl,

   I want to get back to you as I’ve received several inputs from our team. 

 

I am also attaching a picture of the two barrels of NOVEC that we have. One barrel is full, unopened over the last 5-6 years. The other one has about 18 gal (1/3 full) of NOVEC left that we want to use for our cooling system. Please see my response below. 

 

On Sep 3, 2021, at 3:32 PM, Karl Manske <kjmanske AT mmm.com> wrote:

 

Hello Prithwish,

 

It is very likely that the fluid may still be suitable for your use.

The fluid in the unopened drum is likely in the best shape. The previously opened drum may also be okay, but as Rahul suggests, there are several factors that could have effected the fluid. 

Right. 

In terms of what testing is appropriate, I’ll ask first, what are the key properties of the fluid that are most important to your application?

 

The conductivity of the fluid. We need to validate it is nonconductive. Also, it’s fast evaporation property must not be compromised. 

 

What temperatures is the fluid used at? If used below 0 C, it maybe first most important to test for water in the fluid. This is most effectively measured through Karl Fischer titration.

 

We will operate at ~22-30 deg C. 

 

Purity of the fluid is best measured by Gas Chromatography. This allows for detection of any impurities that could affect the use of the fluid.

 

Right. So, what could be absorbed into the fluid over the last 5-6 years. 

 

Let me know how that sounds and if you have any further questions.

 

The piping in our cooling system are all stainless, apart from the tugon tubing at some places. Could there be some impurity that can affect our operation or corrode the piping? 

 

Best,

Prithwish

 

 

 

 

 

Prithwish Tribedy

Physics Department, Brookhaven National Laboratory
Upton, NY 11973, USA
Phone: +1 631-344-8904, 631-344-3853

Fax: +1 631-344-4206
E-mail: ptribedy AT icloud.com

 

 

 

On Sep 3, 2021, at 3:32 PM, Karl Manske <kjmanske AT mmm.com> wrote:

 

Hello Prithwish,

 

It is very likely that the fluid may still be suitable for your use.

 

The fluid in the unopened drum is likely in the best shape. The previously opened drum may also be okay, but as Rahul suggests, there are several factors that could have effected the fluid. 

 

In terms of what testing is appropriate, I’ll ask first, what are the key properties of the fluid that are most important to your application? What temperatures is the fluid used at? If used below 0 C, it maybe first most important to test for water in the fluid. This is most effectively measured through Karl Fischer titration.

 

Purity of the fluid is best measured by Gas Chromatography. This allows for detection of any impurities that could affect the use of the fluid.

 

Let me know how that sounds and if you have any further questions.

 

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Karl Manske | Application Engineering Specialist
3M Electronics Materials Solutions Division
3M Center, 236-2B-01 | St. Paul, MN 55144-1000 | United States
Office: +1 651 736 7992
kjmanske AT mmm.com