U.S. ATLAS HL-LHC Upgrade Level 2 and Deputies-NSF only Management Mailing List

[Elliot Lipeles <lipeles AT hep.upenn.edu>]

Hi Hal,

Okay we'll put my sentence then. Can you get this into the google doc?

On the alternatives, there has been a lot of progress on the CPU-base tracking which makes it at least plausible now, but I think there are still space and power challenges there. This requires abandoning the evolution option. They would need to come up with a lot of money (similar to HTT) for hardware.

There is also an FPGA option using Hough-transform. This could either...

  --  just replace ASIC in the ATCA form-factor and keep the low latency possibility (US scope would barely change, big change for Italians) 

  -- or use commodity FGPA cards in PCs with a commercial network. This still requires firmware coding, but the hardware is off-the-shelf... and again somebody has to buy all that hardware.

So we could say that we would contributed to software/firmware writing and hardware purchases. The main issue with software is that the institutions involved don't have software engineers, they have firmware/hardware people.

Elliot

On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 1:14 PM Hal Evans <hgevans AT indiana.edu> wrote:

Thanks Elliot,

I think that you should add a statement about the commodity hardware option. The sentence that you've produced looks good to me.

Of course, this will beg the question of what happens if the backup solution is chosen to replace the current baseline. Although you don't need to include that discussion in these responses, it would be useful to have an answer thought out. I think that the focus should be on how the US could contribute to a possible commodity HTT (choose the most "likely" of the options currently being considered): would we hire software professionals, is there any hardware to build, etc. Since the actual strategy will be highly dependent on the option chosen, really all we can say right now is whether we're interested in participating in such an option, and if we think that it would require project resources (at some level).

What do you think?

Cheers  -  Hal

On 8/27/19 11:54 AM, Elliot Lipeles wrote:

Here is are replies from me including the one on the science flowdown to trigger for HH to 4b that was in the LAr section.

There was one tricky one (below) about exploring GPUs instead of a custom ASIC for HTT. Here is what I put, but I'm very uncertain whether we want to discuss the existence of this commodity hardware back-up plan group.

1. Has there be an evaluation of using commercial hardware accelerator (GPUs as one example) for track finding/fitting in the higher level trigger? Why build a custom chip?

Answer: This was investigated within ATLAS prior to the selection of HTT as a baseline. At that time, the GPU solution was significantly higher cost and impractical in terms of power consumption. 

EL: Should we add that “ATLAS continues investigate commodity hardware as backup plan, but HTT is the baseline plan.”

Elliot

On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 11:00 AM Gustaaf Brooijmans <gusbroo AT nevis.columbia.edu> wrote:

And a number of management questions answered.  We'll need to read
through when everything is filled, as I added to some existing answers.

On 8/27/19 4:28 PM, Michael Tuts wrote:
> …and with an answer to the uncosted labor fraction (last question)…
>
> *From:* Thomas Schwarz <schwarzt AT umich.edu>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 27, 2019 9:48 AM
> *To:* Hal Evans <hgevans AT indiana.edu>
> *Cc:* Michael Tuts <tuts AT pmtuts.net>;
> usatlas-hllhc-management-l AT lists.bnl.gov;
> usatlas-hllhc-l2deputymgmt-nsf-l AT lists.bnl.gov; Mark Kruse
> <mkruse AT phy.duke.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [Usatlas-hllhc-l2deputymgmt-nsf-l] [External]
> [Usatlas-hllhc-management-l] FW: questions
>
> There were only two questions on muons.  I added my answers on top of
> Hal's.  attached.
>
> Tom
>
>
> ===================
>
> Tom Schwarz
>
> Assistant Professor
>
> Department of Physics
>
> University of Michigan
>
> Office: 734-764-8941
>
> Lab: 734-763-7805
>
> schwarzt AT umich.edu <mailto:schwarzt AT umich.edu>
>
> ===================
>
> On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 9:33 AM Hal Evans <hgevans AT indiana.edu
> <mailto:hgevans AT indiana.edu>> wrote:
>
>     Hi Mike,
>
>     To get the ball rolling, I've prepared draft answers for the
>     "Systems Engineering" questions and for a few of the "General"
>     questions. Comments are welcome.
>
>     Cheers  -  Hal
>
>     On 8/27/19 8:42 AM, Michael Tuts wrote:
>
>         This message was sent from a non-IU address. Please exercise
>         caution when clicking links or opening attachments from external
>         sources.
>
>         Hi All,
>
>         FYI. The ‘homework’ assignments are pretty clear but we will
>         send out explicit ones shortly.
>
>         Cheers, PO
>
>         *From:* Tony Beasley <tbeasley AT nrao.edu> <mailto:tbeasley AT nrao.edu>
>         *Sent:* Monday, August 26, 2019 10:28 PM
>         *To:* Michael Tuts <tuts AT pmtuts.net> <mailto:tuts AT pmtuts.net>
>         *Cc:* Mark Coles (mcoles AT nsf.gov <mailto:mcoles AT nsf.gov>)
>         <mcoles AT nsf.gov> <mailto:mcoles AT nsf.gov>
>         *Subject:* questions
>
>         Mike, please find attached the questions arising from the review
>         team.
>
>         We would like to review your responses (short) on Friday. If
>         anything requires a detailed explanation, please give a short
>         overview of the answer on Friday and deal with it during the
>         review.
>
>         If you can’t understand a question: set aside, and we’ll return
>         to it during the review.
>
>         If possible – please email a copy of your response doc early on
>         Friday, thanks.
>
>         regards.. Tony
>
>
>
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--
Gustaaf Brooijmans - Columbia University
@Columbia: (212) 854 4527; Nevis virtual phone: (914) 591 2804

Als sie mich holten,
gab es keinen mehr, der protestieren konnte.
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 Hal Evans                        hgevans AT indiana.edu
           http://pages.iu.edu/~hgevans/
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