STAR Flow, Chirality and Vorticity PWG

[Frank Geurts <geurts AT rice.edu>]

Dear Fuqiang, Charles -

As Sooraj asked and Charles confirmed, the fit results shown in the plot, 
combined with the resolution numbers shown on this poster, will lead to the 
rho00 numbers that we asked you to remove from the poster in the first place.

Therefore, we ask that you remove those fit results from this STAR poster and 
keep to showing the fits only.

At this time, your analysis shows inconsistencies with STAR’s published 
results. The latter have gone through the same rigorous vetting process that 
each STAR paper goes through, to which you also contributed and signed off 
on.  STAR needs to understand how or where this inconsistency arises by at 
least scrutinizing these analyses with that same rigor.  As soon as we 
understand this, STAR has policies and procedures to inform the community.

Sending out mixed messages to the community based on raw data with unanimous 
and strong objections from the PWG conveners and the PAC is not in the 
interest of the community, let alone STAR. It is STAR’s duty to resolve this 
in a timely manner, and STAR management will address this in the following 
weeks.

Regarding the poster, please follow our PAC’s last request so that Charles’ 
poster can be shown on behalf of our collaboration.


Best regards,

-Frank


______________________________________________________
Frank Geurts   (he/him)
Professor of Physics & Astronomy • Rice University, Houston TX
 T.W. Bonner Nucl. Lab.          • Dept. of Physics & Astronomy
 office 713-348-5314             • web http://heavyions.rice.edu

> On Sep 5, 2023, at 1:21 AM, Wang, Fuqiang via Star-fcv-l 
> <star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov> wrote:
>
> Dear Sooraj,
>
> The fit number is directly from the fit. Presenting the plots with fit but 
> deliberately hiding the fit numbers is not scientific. Even without the 
> numbers, one can in principle get to the final number. Why hide?
>
> The reason you do not approve our raw data is because our raw data disagree 
> with the other group’s raw data. But the raw inv. mass distributions from 
> which the other group’s raw data were derived were not made available to 
> us. Disapproving one because of inconsistency with the other which is not 
> made available to check is not right. I hope you see the logic.
>
> We have made compromise to take off the raw data vs. energy plot and 
> replace it with the <cos^2> vs. mass plots. These plots were in fact 
> recommended by FCV convener to replace the raw data vs. energy plot. If the 
> latest version poster CW sent can be printed at Rice for tomorrow’s poster 
> session, we will be glad to use that version. If not, we will have to use 
> the original poster for tomorrow’s poster presentation. I take full 
> responsibility for this action.
>
> When we are up front and be open to the community, we are better off. If we 
> hide things from the community, we will be bitten. It’s to the best 
> interest of STAR and the field that we are completely open that the entire 
> community is made aware of the full extent and implication of our data, 
> before tons of time/effort/funds are spent to try to explain a potentially 
> wrong data. This is the duty and responsibility of a scientist and a 
> scientific collaboration.
>
> Best regards,
> Fuqiang
>
>
>> On Sep 4, 2023, at 6:59 PM, Sooraj Radhakrishnan via Star-fcv-l 
>> <star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov> wrote:
>>
>> ---- External Email: Use caution with attachments, links, or sharing data 
>> ----
>> Hi Charles,
>>     Thanks. In that case please remove those rho numbers from the panels
>>
>> Sooraj
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 4, 2023 at 6:43 PM Robertson, Charles William 
>> <rober558 AT purdue.edu> wrote:
>> Yes, that's correct.
>>
>>
>> Get Outlook for AndroidFrom: Sooraj Radhakrishnan <skradhakrishnan AT lbl.gov>
>> Sent: Monday, September 4, 2023 6:37:46 PM
>> To: Robertson, Charles William <rober558 AT purdue.edu>
>> Cc: STAR Flow, Chirality and Vorticity PWG <star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [Star-fcv-l] STAR presentation by Charles Robertson for Quark 
>> Matter 2023 submitted for review
>>  ---- External Email: Use caution with attachments, links, or sharing data 
>> ----
>> Hi Charles,
>>    To understand, the numbers you have on the panels in the new plot is 
>> rho_obs, which divided by the resolution numbers you have on the left box 
>> are the rho00 numbers from the removed plot, is that correct?
>>
>> thanks
>> Sooraj
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 4, 2023 at 6:03 PM Robertson, Charles William 
>> <rober558 AT purdue.edu> wrote:
>> Hello Sooraj,
>>
>>
>> Those rho00 numbers are different from the ones on the plot we removed. 
>> Those numbers are from the fit, and they were on the slides we requested 
>> preliminary for. It's my understanding that those numbers were part of the 
>> approved progress plots.
>>
>> -CW
>>
>> Get Outlook for Android
>>
>> From: Sooraj Radhakrishnan <skradhakrishnan AT lbl.gov>
>> Sent: Monday, September 4, 2023 5:35:23 PM
>> To: STAR Flow, Chirality and Vorticity PWG <star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov>
>> Cc: Robertson, Charles William <rober558 AT purdue.edu>
>> Subject: Re: [Star-fcv-l] STAR presentation by Charles Robertson for Quark 
>> Matter 2023 submitted for review
>>
>> ---- External Email: Use caution with attachments, links, or sharing data 
>> ----
>> Hi Charles,
>>    Thanks for the update and new version of the poster. What are the rho00 
>> numbers you have on the panels in your new plot? Are they the same numbers 
>> as in the plot you removed? If so, please remove these numbers
>>
>> thanks
>> Sooraj
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 4, 2023 at 4:47 PM Robertson, Charles William via Star-fcv-l 
>> <star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov> wrote:
>> Hello Sooraj,
>>
>> As Fuqiang mentioned, we presented a consistency check using the 
>> conventional method that agreed with our poster results.  Without the 
>> requested raw distributions from the other group, we could not perform any 
>> additional checks. So, it's unclear how this discrepancy could have been 
>> resolved before QM.
>>
>> In order to move things forward, I have removed our raw rho00 vs. energy 
>> plot at the FCV convenor's recommendation. This plot has been replaced by 
>> our raw <cos^2> vs mass plots for the four energies.
>>
>> The updated poster can be found in the same place. Here's the link: 
>> https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/system/files/CWR-QM2023_poster_6c_0.pdf
>>
>> Thanks,
>> -CW
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Star-fcv-l <star-fcv-l-bounces AT lists.bnl.gov> on behalf of Sooraj 
>> Radhakrishnan via Star-fcv-l <star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov>
>> Sent: Monday, September 4, 2023 12:44 PM
>> To: Wang, Fuqiang <fqwang AT purdue.edu>
>> Cc: Sooraj Radhakrishnan <skradhakrishnan AT lbl.gov>; webmaster AT star.bnl.gov 
>> <webmaster AT star.bnl.gov>; STAR Flow, Chirality and Vorticity PWG 
>> <star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov>
>> Subject: Re: [Star-fcv-l] STAR presentation by Charles Robertson for Quark 
>> Matter 2023 submitted for review
>>  ---- External Email: Use caution with attachments, links, or sharing data 
>> ----
>> Hi Fuqiang,
>>     We had discussions at the pre QM specifically on CWs poster where 
>> conveners have pointed out (and the PAs agree) that the raw rho00 from 
>> CWRs analysis differs from the raw rho00 from the publication. The reason 
>> of this discrepancy is not understood and conveners, PAC and spokespersons 
>> have expressed their unwillingness to show the raw rho00 from CWRs 
>> analysis publicly before we understand the differences. This was made very 
>> clear in the discussion. The discrepancy is still an internal matter for 
>> STAR to understand and resolve
>>
>> Best
>> Sooraj
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 4, 2023 at 11:34 AM Wang, Fuqiang <fqwang AT purdue.edu> wrote:
>> Sooraj,
>>
>> You stated discussions “with the PAs conveners and spokespersons”. I 
>> checked with CW; we were not involved in those discussions. Please clarify 
>> what were discussed, and the concrete reason(s) why our raw data plot 
>> needs to be removed.
>>
>> I will respond further after seeing Rosi’s STAR overview talk.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Fuqiang
>>
>>> On Sep 4, 2023, at 11:18 AM, Sooraj Radhakrishnan via Star-fcv-l 
>>> <star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov> wrote:
>>>
>>> ---- External Email: Use caution with attachments, links, or sharing 
>>> data ----
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi CWR,
>>>    Following the many discussions we have had over the past week and 
>>> during the pre QM meeting with the PAs conveners and spokespersons, 
>>> please revise your poster with the plot comparing raw data from your 
>>> analysis with the published results removed and instead with the steps of 
>>> your correction procedure  (you can move some of the text on the lower 
>>> box to the box now saying 'Raw Results'). Please upload your updated 
>>> poster with this change so that we can sign off on it
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Sooraj
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 24, 2023 at 10:30 PM webmaster--- via Star-fcv-l 
>>> <star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov> wrote:
>>> Dear star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov members,
>>>
>>> Charles Robertson (rober558 AT purdue.edu) has submitted a material for a
>>> review, please have a look:
>>> https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/node/64865
>>>
>>> Deadline: 2023-09-03
>>> ---
>>> If you have any problems with the review process, please contact
>>> webmaster AT www.star.bnl.gov
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Star-fcv-l mailing list
>>> Star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov
>>> https://lists.bnl.gov/mailman/listinfo/star-fcv-l
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sooraj Radhakrishnan
>>> Research Scientist,
>>> Department of Physics
>>> Kent State University
>>> Kent, OH 44243
>>> Physicist Postdoctoral Affiliate
>>> Nuclear Science Division
>>> Lawrence Berkeley National Lab
>>> MS70R0319, One Cyclotron Road
>>> Berkeley, CA 94720
>>> Ph: 510-495-2473
>>> Email: skradhakrishnan AT lbl.gov
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Star-fcv-l mailing list
>>> Star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov
>>> https://lists.bnl.gov/mailman/listinfo/star-fcv-l
>> _______________________________________________
>> Star-fcv-l mailing list
>> Star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov
>> https://lists.bnl.gov/mailman/listinfo/star-fcv-l
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sooraj Radhakrishnan
>> Research Scientist,
>> Department of Physics
>> Kent State University
>> Kent, OH 44243
>>
>> Physicist Postdoctoral Affiliate
>> Nuclear Science Division
>> Lawrence Berkeley National Lab
>> MS70R0319, One Cyclotron Road
>> Berkeley, CA 94720
>> Ph: 510-495-2473
>> Email: skradhakrishnan AT lbl.gov
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sooraj Radhakrishnan
>> Research Scientist,
>> Department of Physics
>> Kent State University
>> Kent, OH 44243
>>
>> Physicist Postdoctoral Affiliate
>> Nuclear Science Division
>> Lawrence Berkeley National Lab
>> MS70R0319, One Cyclotron Road
>> Berkeley, CA 94720
>> Ph: 510-495-2473
>> Email: skradhakrishnan AT lbl.gov
>> _______________________________________________
>> Star-fcv-l mailing list
>> Star-fcv-l AT lists.bnl.gov
>> https://lists.bnl.gov/mailman/listinfo/star-fcv-l
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