Star-fst-l mailing list

[Yi Yang <yiyang AT ncku.edu.tw>]

Hi Zhenyu,

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Yi Yang, Associate Professor
Department of Physics
National Cheng Kung University
Tainan, 701 Taiwan
E-Mail: yiyang AT ncku.edu.tw
Tel: +886-6-2757575 ext.65237
Fax: +886-6-2747995
Group Web: http://phys.ncku.edu.tw/~yiyang
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 9:10 PM Ye, Zhenyu <yezhenyu AT uic.edu> wrote:

> On Jul 31, 2020, at 7:49 AM, Yi Yang <yiyang AT ncku.edu.tw> wrote:
>
> Hi Zhenyu,
>
> Please find my reply inline.
> The updated slides are in the same link (v4).
> (https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/event/2020/07/27/star-forward-silicon-tracker-meeting/module-mechanical-structure)
>
> Cheers,
> Yi
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Yi Yang, Associate Professor
> Department of Physics
> National Cheng Kung University
> Tainan, 701 Taiwan
> E-Mail: yiyang AT ncku.edu.tw
> Tel: +886-6-2757575 ext.65237
> Fax: +886-6-2747995
> Group Web: http://phys.ncku.edu.tw/~yiyang
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 10:25 AM Ye, Zhenyu <yezhenyu AT uic.edu> wrote:
> Hi Yi,
>
> Please find some comments/questions below.
>
> Slide 3:
> Thermalrigh TF8 2G, Loctite EA 9359.3 AERO, Araldite 2011 -> I remember you said the glue you are using have been used for CMS HCAL. Which one(s) are these? Can we get the ES&H checked before the review?
>
> >> Actually I don't know how to do it. Can someone help us?

I guess you could ask Rahul

> I agree with Gerard that probably these can be shown in the safety review, but it is up to you. 

I don’t know when the safety review will take place, but we certainly need the ES&H clearance before the actual production starts, because we can’t have all the modules produced and then learn some of them do not meet the requirement.

>> Totally agree with you.  

 

> Thermalrigh TF8 2G: rad testing -> Does this mean a test is ongoing?
>
> >> Yes, we are preparing samples for the radiation hardness test. The basic idea is to test the thermal conductivity before/after irradiation. 
>
>
> Slide 4:
> In the thermal simulation, what temperature do you use for NOVEC? Is it 25 degree C?
>
> >> This updated simulation is to set the liquid at 22 C, not the outer surface.

The surface temperature is extremely uniform 25.235-25.236.
Did you assume the ambient air is 25 degree C? Is this number coming from Rahul?

>> Yes, I remember Rahul told me that it is about 25 oC, so we used this number. 

 

> In the experiment using cooling water, I guess you put 8 resistors, each generating 0.25W, to simulate APVs?
>
> >> This is correct. 
> 
> Slide 8:
> Goal: quickly produced prototypes for sensor testing
> -> As I wrote in my previous email, I was not aware of this goal. And even this was the case, we clearly failed the goal, because we did not test the inner sensor until this month.
>
> >> In my understanding to complete this kind of complex detector, first we have to test the individual parts, then to test the integrated one to make sure the design is working, and the final step is to optimize everything.
> If you recall at that moment, we were still suffering from the non-flat PEEK, we even tried to move the injection point at center and cut the center part out (see FST-001 and FST-002). We knew that we needed more time to improve the quality, but you also finished the sensor testing and were waiting for us. So I told you that we will try to make prototypes for you to see if they can perform the sensor testing, but the PEEK and procedure were not ready.
>
> I didn't mention that they were made by AIDC. I think it is not fair to them since I didn't provide them enough information and time, also they have a reputation to protect as a leading aerospace company in Taiwan.
>
> It is clearly a failure, so I listed all the issues we found.
> 
> -> Do you want to mention the connector issue and now you have added the QA step?
>
> >> I don't think so since no one took pictures before they were found to be broken, so we don't know the actual reason. I think this QA step is needed even if we didn't have this issue.

In my opinion, connector was a main cause for the delay. As you can see, Xu has this in his presentation. I feel it will be consistent if you include it in your talk, but I will leave it up to you.

>> Since this issue was not found here, I prefer not to show it here. But I will mention orally that "as you saw in Xu's talk, we also had this connector issue." 

 

> 
>
> Slide 21:
> Be prepared to answer questions like, what is the thickness of the glue layer, and that of the thermal geese
>
> >> Ok.
>
> Slide 22:
> (1) Mainly due to the guide pin and this will be fixed after using the recommendation from Rahul’s team
> -> I am not convinced that the guide pin is the main cause (the statement itself is unclear. Reading the sentence, it is unclear what it means by the guide pin is the main cause. Moreover, I think besides using bushing+pins, you are also going to change the procedure, i.e. to eliminate an intermediate step to correlate inner and outer together. You may want to mention both here.
>
> >> Yes, the dominated contribution should come from the guide pins. I modified this sentence to be "Mainly due to the precision of the guide pin (+threaded holes) and the two steps gluing procedure. This will be fixed after using the recommendation from Rahul’s team and modified procedure."
> 
> 
> Slide 24:
> Is it going to work with bushing with an inner diameter of 6-6.008 and a pin with an outer diameter of (6-6.008)?
> What if the bushing is at its lower limit 6.000 and pin at its upper limit 6.008, both are within their tolerance, but pin is larger than the bushing.
> -> I am waiting for the updated slides before asking Fermilab engineers. I note the tolerance of your pin is different than the pin we use for module assembly. For the latter we use JPLRM4-P6-B10 from https://us.misumi-ec.com/vona2/detail/110302194870/
> 
> >> I discussed it with the company. I told them that we want the "press-fit bushing and pin", and they said they know what to do. So they change the tolerance a bit (if you compared to the early one).
> Probably Rahul can confirm it is okay. I will send him another email about this.
>
> Slide 29:
> You are making 60 but we only need 48. Some explanation or adjustment to the number/schedule is needed.
>
> >> We will pick the best 48 in the end. 

This is reasonable. I suggest that you put this statement in the slide.

Do you think you need more than 60 sets of hybrids? Maowu needs this number for his talk.

>> Yes, I would think to ask 80 of them.  

Cheers,

Yi

 

>
> 
> Slide 30:
> The last two statements "Some small adjustments are needed”, “Ready to start production” seem to contracting each other. Do you mean "Ready to start production” on September 9?
>
> >> Yes. It has changed. 
>
>
>
> 
> Zhenyu
>
> > On Jul 30, 2020, at 10:54 AM, Yi Yang <yiyang AT ncku.edu.tw> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Please find the updated version (v3) in the same link (https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/event/2020/07/27/star-forward-silicon-tracker-meeting/module-mechanical-structure).
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Yi
> >
> > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > Yi Yang, Associate Professor
> > Department of Physics
> > National Cheng Kung University
> > Tainan, 701 Taiwan
> > E-Mail: yiyang AT ncku.edu.tw
> > Tel: +886-6-2757575 ext.65237
> > Fax: +886-6-2747995
> > Group Web: http://phys.ncku.edu.tw/~yiyang
> > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 10:22 PM videbaek <videbaek AT bnl.gov> wrote:
> > Hi Zhenyu,
> >
> > very good, then its all consistent.
> > And thanks for the confirmation that they confirm the schdule with the
> > risk due to
> > covid and low priority
> >
> > best Flemming
> >
> >
> > On 2020-07-30 10:14, Ye, Zhenyu wrote:
> > > Hi Flemming.
> > >
> > >> On Jul 30, 2020, at 8:58 AM, videbaek <videbaek AT bnl.gov> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Hi Sun and Zhenyu
> > >>
> > >> thanks for the update -
> > >> Looks overall good now.
> > >> - Please take Gerads comment into account.
> > >>
> > >> I have a comment on on the slide 17;
> > >>
> > >> between some of the steps at FNAL you will check connectivity before
> > >> going on to the next step as shown on
> > >> slide 3. How does this add to the time estimate? Will you bring the
> > >> modules back and forth to UIC?
> > >
> > > The time for the module test (0.5 hour/module, shown on slide 8)
> > > should not add to the total time, which is dominated by the overnight
> > > curing of each gluing step. We plan to set up the test stand at FNAL,
> > > and so no back and forth between FNAL/UIC for production.
> > >
> > >> In total you have set aside 4 month for the assembly i.e. ~ 88
> > >> workdays so there is about
> > >> 2 workdays available per module. Can you confirm.
> > >
> > > Below is the initial statement from SiDet manager a few days ago. I am
> > > in the process of discussing the technical details (setting up the
> > > test stand, making a new assembly tooling set, etc)
> > >
> > >>  Yes, i think we can complete this work near your schedule if there
> > >> are no snags or unforeseen circumstances. Please remember that lab
> > >> projects have priority, but we haven’t had too many issues thus far
> > >> except COVID. Rick
> > >>
> > >>> On Jul 27, 2020, at 6:22 PM, Ye, Zhenyu <yezhenyu AT uic.edu> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Can you comment on the schedule, i.e., can Bert/Michelle/Gary
> > >>> complete the production of 48 modules in March-June 2021?
> > >>>
> > >>> Best
> > >>> Zhenyu
> > >
> > > Zhenyu
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On 2020-07-30 00:08, Xu Sun wrote:
> > >>> Hi Flemming,
> > >>> Sorry for the late reply. Please find my updated slides in the
> > >>> following link:
> > >>> https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/system/files/FstReviewAug2020_v7.pdf
> > >>> Comments and suggestions are welcome.
> > >>> Best,
> > >>> Xu
> > >>> On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 1:55 PM videbaek <videbaek AT bnl.gov> wrote:
> > >>>> Hi
> > >>>> Here are some comments to what should be in the talk: Rahul, Sun,
> > >>>> Maowu
> > >>>> the comments are also in word document
> > >>>> best
> > >>>> Flemming
> > >>>> Assembly UIC/FNAL
> > >>>> There has to be a slide on the Q&A done during production as we talk
> > >>>> about on Monday
> > >>>> // slide 11
> > >>>> Test to be performed –
> > >>>> Amount on time –
> > >>>> Tracking of outcome (how recorded)
> > >>>> Check of temperature of APV chips with infrared sensor/camera. With
> > >>>> cooled water
> > >>>> Maybe done at UIC or at BNL -TDB
> > >>>> Mentioned that this will be repeated when they arrive/assembled in
> > >>>> at
> > >>>> BNL
> > >>>> Need a slide that details just in words the step for assembly
> > >>>> You can keep the summary,
> > >>>> But on slide before take the assembly tasks – put into a 3 column
> > >>>> table
> > >>>> with col 2 == time
> > >>>> (days () , -- also is there no steps for curing time and column 3
> > >>>> with
> > >>>> institution/man power
> > >>>> Repeat the number of assemblies to make; what can be done in
> > >>>> parallel
> > >>>> This is important information to evaluate the 3 months
> > >>>> --
> > >>>> Add an ESH slide describing the additional materials used in
> > >>>> assembly
> > >>>> (like glue, epoxy for encapsulation)
> > >>>> Add statement that you follow UIC guidelines for working safely in
> > >>>> the
> > >>>> lab.
> > >>>> Hybrid & T-boards
> > >>>> Slide 5 ; reformulate the waiting for .. as we discussed.
> > >>>> I assume we agreed we would not change mechanics for the T-board,
> > >>>> but
> > >>>> move the capacitor on the board. Add a week for that task, (design +
> > >>>> signoff by group)
> > >>>> You got my estimate for connectors-
> > >>>> I suggest the make production slide into two
> > >>>> One for hybrid and one for T-board – you might indicator vendor
> > >>>> –
> > >>>> Based on experience with prototype.
> > >>>> Give the quantities being made
> > >>>> One slide with ES&H
> > >>>> Materials proper (is there a standard that is being followed
> > >>>> --- non flammable PCB ?
> > >>>> Work at lab at SDU minimal. Follows University work rules.
> > >>>> Integration
> > >>>> Rahul
> > >>>> Please add a slide on ES&H
> > >>>> That we follow BNL rules
> > >>>> There will be safety review (before actual production?)
> > >>>> Certainly, one before installation
> > >>>> Any specific concern that you pay attention to on this
> > >>>> Also if you can add a slide where you discuss your response to
> > >>>> Charge
> > >>>> questions?
> > >>>> (Those relevant  like installation schedule)
> > >>>> --
> > >>>> Flemming Videbaek
> > >>>> senior scientist
> > >>>> videbaek @ bnl.gov [1]
> > >>>> Brookhaven National Lab
> > >>>> Physics Department
> > >>>> Bldg 510D
> > >>>> Upton, NY 11973
> > >>>> phone: 631-344-4106
> > >>>> cell     :
> > >>>> 631-681-1596_______________________________________________
> > >>>> Star-fst-l mailing list
> > >>>> Star-fst-l AT lists.bnl.gov
> > >>>> https://lists.bnl.gov/mailman/listinfo/star-fst-l
> > >>> Links:
> > >>> ------
> > >>> [1] http://bnl.gov
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Flemming Videbaek
> > >> senior scientist
> > >> videbaek @ bnl.gov
> > >> Brookhaven National Lab
> > >> Physics Department
> > >> Bldg 510D
> > >> Upton, NY 11973
> > >>
> > >> phone: 631-344-4106
> > >> cell     :  631-681-1596
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Star-fst-l mailing list
> > >> Star-fst-l AT lists.bnl.gov
> > >> https://lists.bnl.gov/mailman/listinfo/star-fst-l
> >
> > --
> > Flemming Videbaek
> > senior scientist
> > videbaek @ bnl.gov
> > Brookhaven National Lab
> > Physics Department
> > Bldg 510D
> > Upton, NY 11973
> >
> > phone: 631-344-4106
> > cell     :  631-681-1596
> > _______________________________________________
> > Star-fst-l mailing list
> > Star-fst-l AT lists.bnl.gov
> > https://lists.bnl.gov/mailman/listinfo/star-fst-l
>