STAR HardProbes PWG

[Raghav Kunnawalkam Elayavalli <kunnawalkamraghav AT gmail.com>]

Have a good flight joern! 

i would think that the mu would also be calculable since its also a softdrop observable yes. but at the same time, i don’t think we are having a sufficiently distinct physics message from this. atleast at this point i cant think of any. would need to talk with some of the theorists who did the mu to learn more.  

Cheers
Raghav 


**************************************
First Name - Raghav 
Last Name - Kunnawalkam Elayavalli
Pronouns - they/them
email - raghav.ke AT vanderbilt.edu 
website - https://www.raghavke.me 

RHIC/AGS UEC member
Assistant Professor of Physics
Stevenson Center 6410
Physics & Astronomy Department
Vanderbilt University 
Nashville, TN 37235-1807
**************************************

On Mar 24, 2023, at 3:56 PM, Joern Putschke <joern.putschke AT wayne.edu> wrote:

Hi Raghav,

Hmm, the second bullet I think is in principle more appropriate for the dM part than mu because you only consider soft drop observables which should have removed NP parts  ...

In principle I would think then that like Mg the mu should be easier compared to calculations however I am still missing what it add in addition...  anyways I am almost on the plane so whatever reaches consensus I am happy to show ...

Joern

---

From: Star-hp-l <star-hp-l-bounces AT lists.bnl.gov> on behalf of Raghav Kunnawalkam Elayavalli via Star-hp-l <star-hp-l AT lists.bnl.gov>
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2023 4:47 PM
To: Helen Caines <helen.caines AT yale.edu>; STAR HardProbes PWG <star-hp-l AT lists.bnl.gov>
Subject: Re: [Star-hp-l] STAR presentation by Monika Robotkova for Hard Probes 2023 submitted for review

 

[EXTERNAL]

Also I have two bullets to go with the mu observable - 

“1. \mu highlights a convolution of both energy and momentum scales at a given split 

 2. mass fraction enables a comparison with pQCD calculations highlighting sensitivity to npQCD effects" 

the second half of that statement is based on comparison with Y-T’s plot. 

i don’t think we can go into much more detail on the fundamental physics of what we are seeing at this point. I would like to say something along the lines of parton shower or connecting it to angular ordering which we see from the other observables etc.. but we need theoretical guidance for that. we can contact the theorists who worked on the mu and let them know that we have measured it now.  

Cheers
Raghav 


**************************************
First Name - Raghav 
Last Name - Kunnawalkam Elayavalli
Pronouns - they/them
email - raghav.ke AT vanderbilt.edu 
website - https://www.raghavke.me 

RHIC/AGS UEC member
Assistant Professor of Physics
Stevenson Center 6410
Physics & Astronomy Department
Vanderbilt University 
Nashville, TN 37235-1807
**************************************

On Mar 24, 2023, at 3:11 PM, Helen Caines via Star-hp-l <star-hp-l AT lists.bnl.gov> wrote:

Hi,

 Since time is now short I propose that we go with

""...consistent with angular ordering of the parton shower”

In the 3 talks (Youqi, Monika and Joern/Nihar)

To be continued after HP, or during for those of us not able to be there:

Nihar, its not true that what Youqi is looking at is the first split (that is what Raghav is trying to explain). The Softdrop declustering algorithm is defined to recursively remove soft wide-angle radiation from a jet, so If delta(M) > 0 there has to have been some splitting  BEFORE the one that stop Softdrop and has the Rg that Youqi is looking at.

Helen

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Physics Dept. - Wright Lab.
PO Box 208120
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203-432-5831
***********************
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"Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass.
It's about learning how to dance in the rain." - Vivian Greene

On Mar 24, 2023, at 3:06 PM, Nihar Sahoo via Star-hp-l <star-hp-l AT lists.bnl.gov> wrote:

Hello Raghav,

Thank you for this explanation.
I think the picture what you try to say is not what we are measuring here.
it may get complicated when we use ratio of dM and M.
and also in this measurement we can only say about at the 1st split not subsequent emission.

So I am not sure to say

SLide:9
"...which confirms angular ordering of parton shower"

Hence, It could be Ok to say
"...which confirms angular ordering of parton shower at 1st split"
or
"...which indicates angular ordering of parton shower"

Let me know what do you think.

Regards
Nihar

once we use dM/M ratio and also
On 2023-03-24 18:28, Raghav Kunnawalkam Elayavalli wrote:

Hi Nihar,

SLide:9
"...which confirms angular ordering of parton shower"
Looking at 1st split with grooming we can not say anything about
"angular ordering".
In QCD "angular ordering" it implies "subsequent emissions follow
specific ordering (either space-like or time-like) as a function of
time".
Here we don't probe subsequent emissions as function of time.
I don't get how do we conclude "confirms angular ordering of parton
shower".
Please elaborate.

These *are* different splittings. Lets take a simple cartoon picture
of a jet that looks like this -
jet initiating parton - q -> q + g  (split A)
q + g + g (split B)
q + g + g + g (split C)
q + g + g + g + g (split D)
if you have SD select a ‘first hardest split’ - sometimes it can
give you A, sometimes B, sometimes C etc.. it will give you the split
that passed the zcut.
if you end up selecting split A as your SD, your dM will be 0 by
definition.
Now, if you select on jets that have a large dM, you will likely be
selecting splits B or C or D. but they will still be ’tagged’ as
your ‘first hard softdrop’ split. but technically, they are
happening *after* split A yes. so they are later in time.
that is why, now if we select jets with greater and greater Rg, we end
up seeing a larger dM and consequently, a flatter zg shape.
Cheers
Raghav
**************************************
First Name - Raghav
Last Name - Kunnawalkam Elayavalli
Pronouns - they/them
email - raghav.ke AT vanderbilt.edu
website - https://www.raghavke.me  [1]
RHIC/AGS UEC member
Assistant Professor of Physics
Stevenson Center 6410
Physics & Astronomy Department
Vanderbilt University
Nashville, TN 37235-1807
**************************************

On Mar 24, 2023, at 7:21 AM, Nihar Sahoo via Star-hp-l
<star-hp-l AT lists.bnl.gov> wrote:
Hello Monika,
Thank you for updating your slides.
I don't have any further comments on all your slides except the
following one.
SLide:9
"...which confirms angular ordering of parton shower"
Looking at 1st split with grooming we can not say anything about
"angular ordering".
In QCD "angular ordering" it implies "subsequent emissions follow
specific ordering (either space-like or time-like) as a function of
time".
Here we don't probe subsequent emissions as function of time.
I don't get how do we conclude "confirms angular ordering of parton
shower".
Please elaborate.
Thank you
Nihar
On 2023-03-24 17:21, Robotkova, Monika wrote:
Hello Barbara and Nihar,
I updated figures in my slides and also rephrased some texts based
on
internal discussion. New version is uploaded on Drupal page.
Best regards,
Monika
-------------------------
Od: Barbara Trzeciak <barbara.trzeciak AT gmail.com>
Odesláno: pátek 24. března 2023 2:30
Komu: Robotkova, Monika <robotmon AT fjfi.cvut.cz>
Kopie: Yi Yang <yiyang0429 AT gmail.com>; STAR HardProbes PWG
<star-hp-l AT lists.bnl.gov>; Nihar Sahoo <nihar AT rcf.rhic.bnl.gov>;
webmaster AT star.bnl.gov <webmaster AT star.bnl.gov>
Předmět: Re: [Star-hp-l] STAR presentation by Monika Robotkova for
Hard Probes 2023 submitted for review
Hi Monika,
I sign off your talk.
Please just update the plots on slides 8-10 with the final versions
(check with Youqi) and use better resolution plots.
Cheers,
Barbara
On Thu, Mar 23, 2023 at 10:58 AM Robotkova, Monika
<robotmon AT fjfi.cvut.cz> wrote:
Hello Barbara and Yi,
Thank you very much very much for your comments, I've implemented
them and uploaded v4 on Drupal page. I also updated page with
preliminary plots and preliminary request slides:

https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/blog/robotmon/Preliminary-figures-Jet-substructure-observables-mu-and-kt.

Please see my comments below.
Yi:
- p8: I am not sure if it is good to mention "See Youqi's details
at DIS2023".
I decided to leave the text on the slide since also Youqi has
something similar in her slides, but I rephrased it as Barbara
suggested.
Barbara:
- s28: why do you specifically show systematic uncertainties for
z_g ?
It's just an example how our systematics looks like and also the
only systematics plot with preliminary status from previous
presentations.
Best regards,
Monika
-------------------------
Od: Barbara Trzeciak <barbara.trzeciak AT gmail.com>
Odesláno: středa 22. března 2023 5:12
Komu: Yi Yang <yiyang0429 AT gmail.com>
Kopie: Robotkova, Monika <robotmon AT fjfi.cvut.cz>; STAR HardProbes
PWG <star-hp-l AT lists.bnl.gov>; Nihar Sahoo <nihar AT rcf.rhic.bnl.gov>;
webmaster AT star.bnl.gov <webmaster AT star.bnl.gov>
Předmět: Re: [Star-hp-l] STAR presentation by Monika Robotkova for
Hard Probes 2023 submitted for review
Hi Monika,
thanks for the updated slides.
Please see my remaining minor comments below. And please update your
preliminary request to the drupal page with your preliminary plots.
- Add the conference logo on the first slide and add the conference
name to the footer of other slides.
- s8: The last bullet, you can add "\beta_1,2 = 0, z_cut,2 = 0.1"
- s8: See Youqi Song’s ... -> More details in Youqi Song’s ..
- s8, 9, 10: use better resolution plots.
- s28: why do you specifically show systematic uncertainties for z_g
?
Cheers,
Barbara
On Wed, Mar 22, 2023 at 12:48 PM Yi Yang <yiyang0429 AT gmail.com>
wrote:
Hi Monika,
Thanks a lot for the updated version. I only have two minor
suggestions on v3 for your consideration.
- p8, p9: the "boxes (yellow, green, and black)" cover the
information on the plot, could you please try thinner line for them?
- p8: I am not sure if it is good to mention "See Youqi's details
at DIS2023".
Cheers,
Yi
On Tue, Mar 21, 2023 at 12:52 PM Robotkova, Monika via Star-hp-l
<star-hp-l AT lists.bnl.gov> wrote:
Hello Barbara and Nihar,
Thank you very much for your comments, I've implemented them and
uploaded new version on Drupal page. I also made some minor changes
based on rehearsal at our institution.  Link on my preliminary
plots:

https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/blog/robotmon/Preliminary-figures-Jet-substructure-observables-mu-and-kt

and preliminary request slides:

https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/blog/robotmon/Preliminary-figures-request-Multi-dimensional-measurements-jet-substructure-pp-collisi.

You can find my comments below.
Best regards,
Monika
Slide-4:
Right side STAR detector pic, You need to use updated detector with
forward detectors.
I decided to put there figure from 2012 when data for our analysis
were collected.
>From slide7 to 8, it is not clear what is "Rg vs. dM/M at the first
split" as title on slide-8?
You need to mention before what is dM/M?
People may not remember what is Mg? You need to mention here again.
I have the cartoon on the right and also the definition of dM, so I
think it is sufficient to explain it by words. I also added
Collinear drop on this slide.
-------------------------
Od: Star-hp-l <star-hp-l-bounces AT lists.bnl.gov> za uživatele
Barbara Trzeciak via Star-hp-l <star-hp-l AT lists.bnl.gov>
Odesláno: pátek 17. března 2023 8:24
Komu: Nihar Sahoo <nihar AT rcf.rhic.bnl.gov>; STAR HardProbes PWG
<star-hp-l AT lists.bnl.gov>
Kopie: webmaster AT star.bnl.gov <webmaster AT star.bnl.gov>
Předmět: Re: [Star-hp-l] STAR presentation by Monika Robotkova for
Hard Probes 2023 submitted for review
Hi Monika,
Thanks for the nice slides with a good story.
My comments are below.
- Add the STAR logo on the title page.
- s4: the STAR figure is a bit small. Try to make the text around
it, or just zoom on the detectors that are of interest here.
- s8: it's nice to advertise Youqi's talk. But it's a different
conference and you present here some of the results.
It would be therefore good to briefly introduce the Collinear Drop,
you can do this on s8.
- s9: you don't need "and dM/M for different Rg" in the title.
- s11, 13: remove "for two different pT,jet bins" from the title.
- s16: try to increase the size of the plots.
- s17: I suggest having the last two summary statements in different
colours.
Cheers,
Barbara
On Fri, Mar 17, 2023 at 1:18 PM Nihar Sahoo via Star-hp-l
<star-hp-l AT lists.bnl.gov> wrote:
Hello Monika,
Please find my comments on your nice presentation slides.
___________
General comment/suggestion to all HP2023 and DIS2023 presenters:
1. Please make a Drupal page for all your preliminary plots and
provide
us the link.
If you have already done that, please send us the link.
2. While preparing your analysis plots for "STAR preliminary"
request,
please follow the guidance 1-7:
https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/pwg/common/Preliminary-figures
It saves our time.
_________
Slide-3:
For groomed mass fraction _expression_, the denominator one can use
"M_g".
Is not that?
If yes, then it would be good this.
Slide-4:
Right side STAR detector pic, You need to use updated detector with
forward detectors.
Please mention what is "Jet Patch trigger"? Or just remove it.
Slide-5:
Title: "Unfolding" -> "Detector effects correction"
…obtain particle-level distribution -> "…true distribution from
measured
one"
SLide-8:
>From slide7 to 8, it is not clear what is "Rg vs. dM/M at the first
split" as title on slide-8?
You need to mention before what is dM/M?
People may not remember what is Mg? You need to mention here again.
Slide-11
Please comment on Slide-3
Cheers
Nihar
On 2023-03-17 16:03, webmaster--- via Star-hp-l wrote:
Dear Star-hp-l AT lists.bnl.gov members,
Monika Robotkova (robotmon AT fjfi.cvut.cz) has submitted a material
for a
review, please have a look:
https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/node/63008 [1]
Deadline: 2023-03-26
---
If you have any problems with the review process, please contact
webmaster AT www.star.bnl.gov
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