Star-fst-l mailing list

[Gerard Visser <gvisser AT indiana.edu>]

Hi Jianing,
	That sounds much better and about as I guesstimated as most reasonably 
possible. I suggest proceed to build this thing. I'll have a look at the files 
but I think you shouldn't wait for me again, the change is small enough here.
        Sincerely,

                Gerard


On 11/26/2019 5:00 AM, 董家宁 wrote:
> Hi Gerard,
>    Thanks for all the suggestions.
>    I have implemented them in the outer hybrid layout, and the "neck" is over 
> 2 mm for BOTTOM layer and ~1.8 mm for TOP layer. This is the best I can do right now.
>
> Hi Zhenyu and ALL,
>    The latest output files for outer hybrid v2.3 are upload to the WIKI.
>    (https://wiki.bnl.gov/star/index.php/Hybrid_and_T-board)
>    And the layout for inner hybrid v2.1 has also been improved for the power 
> routing part as Gerard suggested.
>    As you may know, the new vendor will produce 12 sets of inner and outer 
> hybrids. I am wondering if the updated inner hybrid can be used for this 
> production.
>    Please let me know if you are fine with these changes.
>
> Best,
> Jianing
>
>
> > -----原始邮件-----
> > 发件人: "Gerard Visser" <gvisser AT indiana.edu>
> > 发送时间: 2019-11-26 04:45:43 (星期二)
> > 收件人: "董家宁" <jndong AT sdu.edu.cn>
> > 抄送: star-fst-l AT lists.bnl.gov
> > 主题: Re: [Star-fst-l] Weekly FST meeting - 10/31/2019
> >
> > hi Jianing,
> >         I am very sorry to be so late in responding, there were several other 
> > pressing
> > tasks and unfortunate interruptions.
> >         Looking at the new layout, I think it is much improved w.r.t. item 1. 
> > It is
> > however hard to say precisely what is good enough. It still seems to me the
> > narrow "necks" of power nets along the outer radius of the "wings" of the 
> > hybrid
> > could be a little better. For instance on the bottom layer on the left there 
> > are
> > a few very widely spaced traces (1.05 mm roughly, vertically, for one gap) 
> > which
> > force in the end the "neck" of power copper to about 0.74mm. Whereas at least 
> > if
> > you addeded a few vertices you could tighten up those traces considerably and
> > have the "neck" be maybe 2 mm wide.
> >         I cannot really say if this is necessary or not. My only advice is do 
> > the best
> > that you reasonably can within the constraints of the board outline and 2 
> > copper
> > layers, which is not easy of course. It is certainly better than before. Most
> > likely it will work fine as you have it now. I would leave you to be the judge
> > if there are further easy improvements and to do that then. It seems to me yes
> > could be improved by moving some traces a little, unless I am missing 
> > something
> > here.
> >         Your added power vias look good, I don't see any area where 
> > everything goes
> > through just a single via anymore.
> >         Other items 2)-4) seems fine. (About clearance my _guess_ is if we 
> > could have
> > 0.8 mm clearance around the die attach pad it would be nice. But really the
> > question should be for the epxerts who'll do the die attach.)
> >         Anyway, sorry again this has taken so long here. I would recommend 
> > that you
> > either submit for fabrication as is, or better if you can make some small
> > improvements in the "neck" area then please do that and then submit it. It
> > doesn't seem to me beneficial to hold for more review the further change will 
> > be
> > fairly minor.
> >         Sincerely,
> >
> >                 Gerard
> >
> >
> > On 11/15/2019 3:37 AM, 董家宁 wrote:
> > > Hi Gerard,
> > >     Thank you so much for the careful checking.
> > >     I have tried to improve the layout for outer hybrid, the details are 
> > > listed below.
> > >     1. I have adjusted the routing near the power area and also added more 
> > > vias carrying power. But limited on the dimension, it seems difficult to keep 
> > > enough power layout near the edge of the sector. Could you double check it 
> > > again? If that's still not good enough, I will try re-routing.
> > >     2. The temperature sensor are moved closer to the APV chip (chip 7#).
> > >     3. As Zhenyu said that it's doable for Fermilab technician, the APV die 
> > > attach pads on outer hybrid are not modified currently. If we need to update 
> > > the pad clearance, how much clearance do you think is appropriate?
> > >     4. The long skinny bit of top coverlayer between the two sensors is 
> > > actually caused by the rotation of the two outer sensor footprint, which is 
> > > 7.5 degree in the old (7/12/2019) hybrid and 8 degree in the current version. 
> > > Whatever, I delete it in the update.
> > >     As for the inner hybrid, I'm also trying to improve the power layout. 
> > > Maybe the better one can be used for the next hybrid production.
> > >
> > >     You can find the updated layout (gerber files) for outer hybrid in the 
> > > attachment or the following link.
> > >     
> > > (https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/blog/jndong/191115-gerber-files-outer-hybrids-v23)
> > >     If there is anything unreasonable, please let me know.
> > >     Thanks!
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Jianing
> > >
> > > > -----原始邮件-----
> > > > 发件人: "Gerard Visser" <gvisser AT indiana.edu>
> > > > 发送时间: 2019-11-15 00:43:43 (星期五)
> > > > 收件人: star-fst-l AT lists.bnl.gov
> > > > 抄送:
> > > > 主题: Re: [Star-fst-l] Weekly FST meeting - 10/31/2019
> > > >
> > > > hi Jianing, Zhenyu,
> > > >         Zhenyu had asked if the inner hybrid (2.1) looked similarly in my 
> > > > opinion. I
> > > > had a look at that again just now. Of course the 4th point below is not
> > > > applicable. As to APV die attach pad clearance, it is different on the inner
> > > > hybrid and looks like on average anyway more clearance. I think it could still
> > > > have had a bit more clearance though. (But, doing an angled layout can be
> > > > difficult, increasing clearance may be difficult. And anyway the real question
> > > > is what do the bonding experts who will be assembling this think? If they say 
> > > > it
> > > > is fine to assemble without risk of shorts then that is completely fine, no 
> > > > more
> > > > clearance is needed than that.) The temperature sensor is closer to APV by
> > > > default since everything is closer together. The skinny power layout issues 
> > > > are
> > > > there but not as severely; I see again one via carrying power where I'd prefer
> > > > to have seen a couple of vias in parallel.
> > > >         In summary I don't see any catastrophic issues there. It makes sense 
> > > > to improve
> > > > the new outer hybrid, assemble a full module and read it out and see good
> > > > pedestals and cosmics and then declare victory and move on to production. But 
> > > > if
> > > > for any reason the inner is revised these points should be addressed then.
> > > >         Sincerely,
> > > >
> > > >                 Gerard
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 11/14/2019 9:53 AM, Gerard Visser wrote:
> > > > > hi Jianing,
> > > > >        The outer hybrid layout looks pretty good, but I have a few comments 
> > > > > for
> > > > > your consideration:
> > > > >
> > > > > - I have some concerns about impedance of power routing on the hybrid, please
> > > > > see attached picture. Unless I am misunderstanding something, it is not too 
> > > > > good
> > > > > and it could I think be very much improved with small changes in your layout. 
> > > > > It
> > > > > is very hard to say how important this is. However I think the APV chip is not
> > > > > the best in the world for insensitivity to power supply voltage and noise;
> > > > > statement based on my recollections of prototyping for the STAR FGT. I think 
> > > > > we
> > > > > should take care to make it as good as we reasonably can.
> > > > >
> > > > > - It would be better if the temperature sensor was closer to one of the middle
> > > > > APV chips. Those will of course be the hot spots. But this is not critical, we
> > > > > don't really need an absolute temperature measurement from these, really we 
> > > > > just
> > > > > need to monitor if temperatures are changing from whatever the normal reading
> > > > > turns out to be.
> > > > >
> > > > > - I think it would be better if there was a lot more clearance around the APV
> > > > > die attach pad to other nets. You have 0.212 mm. This is surely plenty for
> > > > > building the hybrid, but I am worried about the die attach epoxy spilling out
> > > > > and risking a short. Have the Fermilab people reviewed the hybrid gerbers, any
> > > > > comment from them about it? I guess if they are not worried, I am not worried
> > > > > about it then either, as long as they saw this detail.
> > > > >
> > > > > - Do we really want that long skinny bit of top coverlayer between the two
> > > > > sensors? (I am assuming the .GTS gerber is negative of the coverlayer.) Note I
> > > > > do not see this in the old (7/12/2019) hybrid in the picture that Yi recently
> > > > > sent. Maybe it was there in design and your vendor deleted it for you?
> > > > >
> > > > >        Sincerely,
> > > > >
> > > > >            Gerard
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 11/7/2019 9:48 AM, Gerard Visser wrote:
> > > > > > hi Jianing,
> > > > > >        I checked the schematics
> > > > > >
> > > > > > outer hybrid
> > > > > > https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/system/files/hybrid_outer_v2_3-schematic_0.pdf
> > > > > >
> > > > > > inner hybrid
> > > > > > https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/system/files/hybrid_inner_v2_1-schematic.pdf
> > > > > >
> > > > > > T-board
> > > > > > https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/system/files/T-Board_v3-schematic.pdf
> > > > > >
> > > > > >        I think everything looks correct in these. One minor point is that we
> > > > > > probably have to change the resistor values (on T-board and on hybrids) to
> > > > > > have less reflection on the CLK and TRG lines. The cable has a characteristic
> > > > > > impedance (differential) of around 100 to 110 Ohms. (It isn't very precisely
> > > > > > controlled, we should measure it when we have the cable, but it will be around
> > > > > > that value. So we should make the input impedance of T-board and hybrids
> > > > > > assembly around 100-110 Ohms. I suggest changing the resistors R1, R2 on outer
> > > > > > hybrid and on inner hybrid from 49.9 to 78.7 Ohm, and the leaving the
> > > > > > resistors R9, R10, R11, R12 on the T-board at 33.2 Ohm. Final values have to
> > > > > > be confirmed after all the boards and cable are available for a scope
> > > > > > measurement. At that time we _might_ decide to change the value on T-board;
> > > > > > the 78.7 Ohm on hybrids is very likely to be fine (and is of course a lot more
> > > > > > trouble to modify on existing boards, so we won't want to do that).
> > > > > >        [FYI in IST from the documents at
> > > > > > https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/blog/yezhenyu/forward-silicon-tracker-ist the
> > > > > > naively calculated input impedance 166 Ohms which is not right. I am not sure
> > > > > > why, perhaps the documents are not really all correct. I think Ben did look at
> > > > > > CLK & TRG waveforms with a scope and optimize these, although I don't have any
> > > > > > record of it.]
> > > > > >        I will have a look at new outer hybrid layout for electrical / layout
> > > > > > issues only -- not for mechanical interface issues -- but I expect no
> > > > > > problems, it will look nice as the prior version did.
> > > > > >        Thanks,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >            Gerard
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 10/31/2019 10:22 PM, 董家宁 wrote:
> > > > > > > Hi Gerard,
> > > > > > >      Thanks for your help.
> > > > > > >      There are no changes on the connector part.
> > > > > > >      Please let me know if you need any other files.
> > > > > > >      Thanks!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > > Jianing
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -----原始邮件-----
> > > > > > > > 发件人: "Gerard Visser" <gvisser AT indiana.edu>
> > > > > > > > 发送时间: 2019-11-01 10:14:39 (星期五)
> > > > > > > > 收件人: star-fst-l AT lists.bnl.gov
> > > > > > > > 抄送:
> > > > > > > > 主题: Re: [Star-fst-l] Weekly FST meeting - 10/31/2019
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > hi Jianing, Zhenyu,
> > > > > > > >       Somebody was going to document (simply with a picture or two) how that 
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > connector tab of outer (particularly) hybrid fits well to the T-board on
> > > > > > > > mechanical structure. I think we should see this before the new outer hybrid 
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > ordered. (Is there any change in this aspect of the new outer hybrid? I
> > > > > > > > understood no change.)
> > > > > > > >       Meanwhile, yes it is in my inbox to check the electrical aspects, I will
> > > > > > > > try to
> > > > > > > > have that done by early next week.
> > > > > > > >       Thanks,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >           Gerard
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On 10/31/2019 10:04 PM, 董家宁 wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Dear All,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >       2.Hybrid, T-board:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >       With the help of Mike and Gerard,  the address connection for the
> > > > > > > > > temperature
> > > > > > > > > sensor chip on outer hybrid is modified and updated.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >       And the schematic for T-board v3.0 is also updated (keep one set of
> > > > > > > > > temperature sensor and reset circuit).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >       I think they are all waiting for the double check.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >       If there are no other mistakes for outer hybrid layout, it will take
> > > > > > > > > about 3
> > > > > > > > > weeks for the production.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >       All the detailed status are listed on the WIKI
> > > > > > > > > (https://wiki.bnl.gov/star/index.php/Hybrid_and_T-board).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Jianing
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >        -----原始邮件-----
> > > > > > > > >        *发件人:*"Capotosto, Michael" <capotosto AT bnl.gov>
> > > > > > > > >        *发送时间:*2019-11-01 05:43:15 (星期五)
> > > > > > > > >        *收件人:* "Ye, Zhenyu" <yezhenyu AT uic.edu>, "star-fst-l AT lists.bnl.gov"
> > > > > > > > >        <star-fst-l AT lists.bnl.gov>
> > > > > > > > >        *抄送:*
> > > > > > > > >        *主题:* Re: [Star-fst-l] Weekly FST meeting - 10/31/2019
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >        All,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >        As discussed last meeting, I’ve compiled the documentation and posted
> > > > > > > > > it to
> > > > > > > > >        the wiki: https://wiki.bnl.gov/star/index.php/Cables
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >        T-Board/Inner Signal Cable:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >        Last meeting we agreed we would use the IST-type of cables, due to
> > > > > > > > > cost. It
> > > > > > > > >        turns out I misinterpreted the quote – we were quoted for 400ft of
> > > > > > > > > cable but
> > > > > > > > >        they had a minimum 1,000ft order. It is cheaper as Gerard expected to 
> > > > > > > > > use
> > > > > > > > >        the Polypropylene/PVC/PVC cable. I’m waiting to hear back from Gerard
> > > > > > > > > on how
> > > > > > > > >        he’d like to proceed. The updated quotes binder mentioned can be found
> > > > > > > > > here:
> > > > > > > > > https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/system/files/Cable%20Quotes%20Binder%2010-28-2019.pdf
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > <https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/system/files/Cable%20Quotes%20Binder%2010-28-2019.pdf>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >        The quotes binder also includes new updated (non-expired) quotes, so
> > > > > > > > > once we
> > > > > > > > >        have a decision we can order the cables. (Elke/Gerard/Zhenyu, will
> > > > > > > > > this be
> > > > > > > > >        on one of the BNL accounts, or will I be sending this to someone else?
> > > > > > > > > If it
> > > > > > > > >        will be on a BNL account I can start drafting the PO so it will be
> > > > > > > > > ready to
> > > > > > > > >        send when we make a final decision).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >        Regarding the V2.1 T-Board modifications, I believe we just need to
> > > > > > > > > remove a
> > > > > > > > >        handful of parts to in order to make it work, I’ve discussed this in an
> > > > > > > > >        email with Jianing and Gerard, and am waiting to hear back from 
> > > > > > > > > Gerard. I
> > > > > > > > >        will have the cables re-labeled tonight before I leave (to match the
> > > > > > > > > VIA REF
> > > > > > > > >        DES used in V2.1 T-Boards we are assembling). Once Gerard gives me the
> > > > > > > > > O.K.
> > > > > > > > >        I’ll pull the parts off the boards, and we should be able to give them 
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > >        the assembler within a working day or two. If there are no objections, 
> > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > >        will extend the due date for the vendor to November 29.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >        If I’ve missed any points please let me know.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >        Best,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >              Mike Capotosto
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
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