Star-fst-l mailing list

[董家宁 <jndong AT sdu.edu.cn>]

Hi Zhenyu,
  Yes, the dimensions for inner hybrid are not changed in this update, and 
that's why I didn't refer it as v2.3. Whatever, I modify the version to v2.3 
on the WIKI. (https://wiki.bnl.gov/star/index.php/Hybrid_and_T-board)
  The dimensions for v2.3 outer hybrid are the same as those for v2.2, in 
which we update the positions of APV to keep consistent with the outer 
sensors. But v2.2 is not produced.
  Please let me know if you have any concerns.

Best,
Jianing

> -----原始邮件-----
> 发件人: "Ye, Zhenyu" <yezhenyu AT uic.edu>
> 发送时间: 2019-11-27 01:21:12 (星期三)
> 收件人: "董家宁" <jndong AT sdu.edu.cn>
> 抄送: "gerard visser" <gvisser AT indiana.edu>, "star-fst-l AT lists.bnl.gov" 
> <star-fst-l AT lists.bnl.gov>
> 主题: Re: [Star-fst-l] Weekly FST meeting - 10/31/2019
> 
> Hi Jianing, Gerard, thanks for looking into this. 
> 
> Jianing, since you also made some changes to inner hybrid, please refer it 
> as v2.3 as well instead of old v2.1. 
> Just to confirm, is it correct that the dimensions of both inner and outer 
> hybrids (shape, size, positions of APV, sensors, and APV bonding pads and 
> sensor HV bias pads) in v2.3 are unchanged w.r.t. hybrid v2.1? 
> 
> Zhenyu 
> 
> 
> 
> > On Nov 26, 2019, at 4:00 AM, 董家宁 <jndong AT sdu.edu.cn> wrote:
> > 
> > Hi Gerard,
> >  Thanks for all the suggestions.
> >  I have implemented them in the outer hybrid layout, and the "neck" is 
> > over 2 mm for BOTTOM layer and ~1.8 mm for TOP layer. This is the best I 
> > can do right now.
> > 
> > Hi Zhenyu and ALL,
> >  The latest output files for outer hybrid v2.3 are upload to the WIKI. 
> >  (https://wiki.bnl.gov/star/index.php/Hybrid_and_T-board)
> >  And the layout for inner hybrid v2.1 has also been improved for the 
> > power routing part as Gerard suggested.
> >  As you may know, the new vendor will produce 12 sets of inner and outer 
> > hybrids. I am wondering if the updated inner hybrid can be used for this 
> > production. 
> >  Please let me know if you are fine with these changes.
> > 
> > Best,
> > Jianing
> > 
> > 
> >> -----原始邮件-----
> >> 发件人: "Gerard Visser" <gvisser AT indiana.edu>
> >> 发送时间: 2019-11-26 04:45:43 (星期二)
> >> 收件人: "董家宁" <jndong AT sdu.edu.cn>
> >> 抄送: star-fst-l AT lists.bnl.gov
> >> 主题: Re: [Star-fst-l] Weekly FST meeting - 10/31/2019
> >> 
> >> hi Jianing,
> >>    I am very sorry to be so late in responding, there were several other 
> >> pressing 
> >> tasks and unfortunate interruptions.
> >>    Looking at the new layout, I think it is much improved w.r.t. item 1. 
> >> It is 
> >> however hard to say precisely what is good enough. It still seems to me 
> >> the 
> >> narrow "necks" of power nets along the outer radius of the "wings" of 
> >> the hybrid 
> >> could be a little better. For instance on the bottom layer on the left 
> >> there are 
> >> a few very widely spaced traces (1.05 mm roughly, vertically, for one 
> >> gap) which 
> >> force in the end the "neck" of power copper to about 0.74mm. Whereas at 
> >> least if 
> >> you addeded a few vertices you could tighten up those traces 
> >> considerably and 
> >> have the "neck" be maybe 2 mm wide.
> >>    I cannot really say if this is necessary or not. My only advice is do 
> >> the best 
> >> that you reasonably can within the constraints of the board outline and 
> >> 2 copper 
> >> layers, which is not easy of course. It is certainly better than before. 
> >> Most 
> >> likely it will work fine as you have it now. I would leave you to be the 
> >> judge 
> >> if there are further easy improvements and to do that then. It seems to 
> >> me yes 
> >> could be improved by moving some traces a little, unless I am missing 
> >> something 
> >> here.
> >>    Your added power vias look good, I don't see any area where 
> >> everything goes 
> >> through just a single via anymore.
> >>    Other items 2)-4) seems fine. (About clearance my _guess_ is if we 
> >> could have 
> >> 0.8 mm clearance around the die attach pad it would be nice. But really 
> >> the 
> >> question should be for the epxerts who'll do the die attach.)
> >>    Anyway, sorry again this has taken so long here. I would recommend 
> >> that you 
> >> either submit for fabrication as is, or better if you can make some 
> >> small 
> >> improvements in the "neck" area then please do that and then submit it. 
> >> It 
> >> doesn't seem to me beneficial to hold for more review the further change 
> >> will be 
> >> fairly minor.
> >>    Sincerely,
> >> 
> >>            Gerard
> >> 
> >> 
> >> On 11/15/2019 3:37 AM, 董家宁 wrote:
> >>> Hi Gerard,
> >>>   Thank you so much for the careful checking.
> >>>   I have tried to improve the layout for outer hybrid, the details are 
> >>> listed below.
> >>>   1. I have adjusted the routing near the power area and also added 
> >>> more vias carrying power. But limited on the dimension, it seems 
> >>> difficult to keep enough power layout near the edge of the sector. 
> >>> Could you double check it again? If that's still not good enough, I 
> >>> will try re-routing.
> >>>   2. The temperature sensor are moved closer to the APV chip (chip 7#).
> >>>   3. As Zhenyu said that it's doable for Fermilab technician, the APV 
> >>> die attach pads on outer hybrid are not modified currently. If we need 
> >>> to update the pad clearance, how much clearance do you think is 
> >>> appropriate?
> >>>   4. The long skinny bit of top coverlayer between the two sensors is 
> >>> actually caused by the rotation of the two outer sensor footprint, 
> >>> which is 7.5 degree in the old (7/12/2019) hybrid and 8 degree in the 
> >>> current version. Whatever, I delete it in the update.
> >>>   As for the inner hybrid, I'm also trying to improve the power layout. 
> >>> Maybe the better one can be used for the next hybrid production.
> >>> 
> >>>   You can find the updated layout (gerber files) for outer hybrid in 
> >>> the attachment or the following link.
> >>>   
> >>> (https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/blog/jndong/191115-gerber-files-outer-hybrids-v23)
> >>>   If there is anything unreasonable, please let me know.
> >>>   Thanks!
> >>> 
> >>> Best,
> >>> Jianing
> >>> 
> >>>> -----原始邮件-----
> >>>> 发件人: "Gerard Visser" <gvisser AT indiana.edu>
> >>>> 发送时间: 2019-11-15 00:43:43 (星期五)
> >>>> 收件人: star-fst-l AT lists.bnl.gov
> >>>> 抄送:
> >>>> 主题: Re: [Star-fst-l] Weekly FST meeting - 10/31/2019
> >>>> 
> >>>> hi Jianing, Zhenyu,
> >>>>  Zhenyu had asked if the inner hybrid (2.1) looked similarly in my 
> >>>> opinion. I
> >>>> had a look at that again just now. Of course the 4th point below is not
> >>>> applicable. As to APV die attach pad clearance, it is different on the 
> >>>> inner
> >>>> hybrid and looks like on average anyway more clearance. I think it 
> >>>> could still
> >>>> have had a bit more clearance though. (But, doing an angled layout can 
> >>>> be
> >>>> difficult, increasing clearance may be difficult. And anyway the real 
> >>>> question
> >>>> is what do the bonding experts who will be assembling this think? If 
> >>>> they say it
> >>>> is fine to assemble without risk of shorts then that is completely 
> >>>> fine, no more
> >>>> clearance is needed than that.) The temperature sensor is closer to 
> >>>> APV by
> >>>> default since everything is closer together. The skinny power layout 
> >>>> issues are
> >>>> there but not as severely; I see again one via carrying power where 
> >>>> I'd prefer
> >>>> to have seen a couple of vias in parallel.
> >>>>  In summary I don't see any catastrophic issues there. It makes sense 
> >>>> to improve
> >>>> the new outer hybrid, assemble a full module and read it out and see 
> >>>> good
> >>>> pedestals and cosmics and then declare victory and move on to 
> >>>> production. But if
> >>>> for any reason the inner is revised these points should be addressed 
> >>>> then.
> >>>>  Sincerely,
> >>>> 
> >>>>          Gerard
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> On 11/14/2019 9:53 AM, Gerard Visser wrote:
> >>>>> hi Jianing,
> >>>>>      The outer hybrid layout looks pretty good, but I have a few 
> >>>>> comments for
> >>>>> your consideration:
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> - I have some concerns about impedance of power routing on the 
> >>>>> hybrid, please
> >>>>> see attached picture. Unless I am misunderstanding something, it is 
> >>>>> not too good
> >>>>> and it could I think be very much improved with small changes in your 
> >>>>> layout. It
> >>>>> is very hard to say how important this is. However I think the APV 
> >>>>> chip is not
> >>>>> the best in the world for insensitivity to power supply voltage and 
> >>>>> noise;
> >>>>> statement based on my recollections of prototyping for the STAR FGT. 
> >>>>> I think we
> >>>>> should take care to make it as good as we reasonably can.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> - It would be better if the temperature sensor was closer to one of 
> >>>>> the middle
> >>>>> APV chips. Those will of course be the hot spots. But this is not 
> >>>>> critical, we
> >>>>> don't really need an absolute temperature measurement from these, 
> >>>>> really we just
> >>>>> need to monitor if temperatures are changing from whatever the normal 
> >>>>> reading
> >>>>> turns out to be.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> - I think it would be better if there was a lot more clearance around 
> >>>>> the APV
> >>>>> die attach pad to other nets. You have 0.212 mm. This is surely 
> >>>>> plenty for
> >>>>> building the hybrid, but I am worried about the die attach epoxy 
> >>>>> spilling out
> >>>>> and risking a short. Have the Fermilab people reviewed the hybrid 
> >>>>> gerbers, any
> >>>>> comment from them about it? I guess if they are not worried, I am not 
> >>>>> worried
> >>>>> about it then either, as long as they saw this detail.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> - Do we really want that long skinny bit of top coverlayer between 
> >>>>> the two
> >>>>> sensors? (I am assuming the .GTS gerber is negative of the 
> >>>>> coverlayer.) Note I
> >>>>> do not see this in the old (7/12/2019) hybrid in the picture that Yi 
> >>>>> recently
> >>>>> sent. Maybe it was there in design and your vendor deleted it for you?
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>      Sincerely,
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>          Gerard
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> On 11/7/2019 9:48 AM, Gerard Visser wrote:
> >>>>>> hi Jianing,
> >>>>>>      I checked the schematics
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> outer hybrid
> >>>>>> https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/system/files/hybrid_outer_v2_3-schematic_0.pdf
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> inner hybrid
> >>>>>> https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/system/files/hybrid_inner_v2_1-schematic.pdf
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> T-board
> >>>>>> https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/system/files/T-Board_v3-schematic.pdf
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>      I think everything looks correct in these. One minor point is 
> >>>>>> that we
> >>>>>> probably have to change the resistor values (on T-board and on 
> >>>>>> hybrids) to
> >>>>>> have less reflection on the CLK and TRG lines. The cable has a 
> >>>>>> characteristic
> >>>>>> impedance (differential) of around 100 to 110 Ohms. (It isn't very 
> >>>>>> precisely
> >>>>>> controlled, we should measure it when we have the cable, but it will 
> >>>>>> be around
> >>>>>> that value. So we should make the input impedance of T-board and 
> >>>>>> hybrids
> >>>>>> assembly around 100-110 Ohms. I suggest changing the resistors R1, 
> >>>>>> R2 on outer
> >>>>>> hybrid and on inner hybrid from 49.9 to 78.7 Ohm, and the leaving the
> >>>>>> resistors R9, R10, R11, R12 on the T-board at 33.2 Ohm. Final values 
> >>>>>> have to
> >>>>>> be confirmed after all the boards and cable are available for a scope
> >>>>>> measurement. At that time we _might_ decide to change the value on 
> >>>>>> T-board;
> >>>>>> the 78.7 Ohm on hybrids is very likely to be fine (and is of course 
> >>>>>> a lot more
> >>>>>> trouble to modify on existing boards, so we won't want to do that).
> >>>>>>      [FYI in IST from the documents at
> >>>>>> https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/blog/yezhenyu/forward-silicon-tracker-ist
> >>>>>>  the
> >>>>>> naively calculated input impedance 166 Ohms which is not right. I am 
> >>>>>> not sure
> >>>>>> why, perhaps the documents are not really all correct. I think Ben 
> >>>>>> did look at
> >>>>>> CLK & TRG waveforms with a scope and optimize these, although I 
> >>>>>> don't have any
> >>>>>> record of it.]
> >>>>>>      I will have a look at new outer hybrid layout for electrical / 
> >>>>>> layout
> >>>>>> issues only -- not for mechanical interface issues -- but I expect no
> >>>>>> problems, it will look nice as the prior version did.
> >>>>>>      Thanks,
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>          Gerard
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> On 10/31/2019 10:22 PM, 董家宁 wrote:
> >>>>>>> Hi Gerard,
> >>>>>>>    Thanks for your help.
> >>>>>>>    There are no changes on the connector part.
> >>>>>>>    Please let me know if you need any other files.
> >>>>>>>    Thanks!
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>>> Jianing
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> -----原始邮件-----
> >>>>>>>> 发件人: "Gerard Visser" <gvisser AT indiana.edu>
> >>>>>>>> 发送时间: 2019-11-01 10:14:39 (星期五)
> >>>>>>>> 收件人: star-fst-l AT lists.bnl.gov
> >>>>>>>> 抄送:
> >>>>>>>> 主题: Re: [Star-fst-l] Weekly FST meeting - 10/31/2019
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> hi Jianing, Zhenyu,
> >>>>>>>>     Somebody was going to document (simply with a picture or two) 
> >>>>>>>> how that the
> >>>>>>>> connector tab of outer (particularly) hybrid fits well to the 
> >>>>>>>> T-board on
> >>>>>>>> mechanical structure. I think we should see this before the new 
> >>>>>>>> outer hybrid is
> >>>>>>>> ordered. (Is there any change in this aspect of the new outer 
> >>>>>>>> hybrid? I
> >>>>>>>> understood no change.)
> >>>>>>>>     Meanwhile, yes it is in my inbox to check the electrical 
> >>>>>>>> aspects, I will
> >>>>>>>> try to
> >>>>>>>> have that done by early next week.
> >>>>>>>>     Thanks,
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>         Gerard
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> On 10/31/2019 10:04 PM, 董家宁 wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> Dear All,
> >>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>>     2.Hybrid, T-board:
> >>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>>     With the help of Mike and Gerard,  the address connection for 
> >>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>> temperature
> >>>>>>>>> sensor chip on outer hybrid is modified and updated.
> >>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>>     And the schematic for T-board v3.0 is also updated (keep one 
> >>>>>>>>> set of
> >>>>>>>>> temperature sensor and reset circuit).
> >>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>>     I think they are all waiting for the double check.
> >>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>>     If there are no other mistakes for outer hybrid layout, it 
> >>>>>>>>> will take
> >>>>>>>>> about 3
> >>>>>>>>> weeks for the production.
> >>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>>     All the detailed status are listed on the WIKI
> >>>>>>>>> (https://wiki.bnl.gov/star/index.php/Hybrid_and_T-board).
> >>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> Jianing
> >>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>>      -----原始邮件-----
> >>>>>>>>>      *发件人:*"Capotosto, Michael" <capotosto AT bnl.gov>
> >>>>>>>>>      *发送时间:*2019-11-01 05:43:15 (星期五)
> >>>>>>>>>      *收件人:* "Ye, Zhenyu" <yezhenyu AT uic.edu>, 
> >>>>>>>>> "star-fst-l AT lists.bnl.gov"
> >>>>>>>>>      <star-fst-l AT lists.bnl.gov>
> >>>>>>>>>      *抄送:*
> >>>>>>>>>      *主题:* Re: [Star-fst-l] Weekly FST meeting - 10/31/2019
> >>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>>      All,
> >>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>>      As discussed last meeting, I’ve compiled the documentation 
> >>>>>>>>> and posted
> >>>>>>>>> it to
> >>>>>>>>>      the wiki: https://wiki.bnl.gov/star/index.php/Cables
> >>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>>      T-Board/Inner Signal Cable:
> >>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>>      Last meeting we agreed we would use the IST-type of cables, 
> >>>>>>>>> due to
> >>>>>>>>> cost. It
> >>>>>>>>>      turns out I misinterpreted the quote – we were quoted for 
> >>>>>>>>> 400ft of
> >>>>>>>>> cable but
> >>>>>>>>>      they had a minimum 1,000ft order. It is cheaper as Gerard 
> >>>>>>>>> expected to use
> >>>>>>>>>      the Polypropylene/PVC/PVC cable. I’m waiting to hear back 
> >>>>>>>>> from Gerard
> >>>>>>>>> on how
> >>>>>>>>>      he’d like to proceed. The updated quotes binder mentioned 
> >>>>>>>>> can be found
> >>>>>>>>> here:
> >>>>>>>>> https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/system/files/Cable%20Quotes%20Binder%2010-28-2019.pdf
> >>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> <https://drupal.star.bnl.gov/STAR/system/files/Cable%20Quotes%20Binder%2010-28-2019.pdf>
> >>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>>      The quotes binder also includes new updated (non-expired) 
> >>>>>>>>> quotes, so
> >>>>>>>>> once we
> >>>>>>>>>      have a decision we can order the cables. 
> >>>>>>>>> (Elke/Gerard/Zhenyu, will
> >>>>>>>>> this be
> >>>>>>>>>      on one of the BNL accounts, or will I be sending this to 
> >>>>>>>>> someone else?
> >>>>>>>>> If it
> >>>>>>>>>      will be on a BNL account I can start drafting the PO so it 
> >>>>>>>>> will be
> >>>>>>>>> ready to
> >>>>>>>>>      send when we make a final decision).
> >>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>>      Regarding the V2.1 T-Board modifications, I believe we just 
> >>>>>>>>> need to
> >>>>>>>>> remove a
> >>>>>>>>>      handful of parts to in order to make it work, I’ve discussed 
> >>>>>>>>> this in an
> >>>>>>>>>      email with Jianing and Gerard, and am waiting to hear back 
> >>>>>>>>> from Gerard. I
> >>>>>>>>>      will have the cables re-labeled tonight before I leave (to 
> >>>>>>>>> match the
> >>>>>>>>> VIA REF
> >>>>>>>>>      DES used in V2.1 T-Boards we are assembling). Once Gerard 
> >>>>>>>>> gives me the
> >>>>>>>>> O.K.
> >>>>>>>>>      I’ll pull the parts off the boards, and we should be able to 
> >>>>>>>>> give them to
> >>>>>>>>>      the assembler within a working day or two. If there are no 
> >>>>>>>>> objections, I
> >>>>>>>>>      will extend the due date for the vendor to November 29.
> >>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>>      If I’ve missed any points please let me know.
> >>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>>      Best,
> >>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>>            Mike Capotosto
> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> Star-fst-l mailing list
> >>>>>>>> Star-fst-l AT lists.bnl.gov
> >>>>>>>> https://lists.bnl.gov/mailman/listinfo/star-fst-l
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>> Star-fst-l AT lists.bnl.gov
> >>>>> https://lists.bnl.gov/mailman/listinfo/star-fst-l
> >>>>> 
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